[k3] Isotropic Antenna
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I live in a 2nd floor condo and am considering an isotropic antennaa on my balcony for 10/15/20 meters. Anybody have any experience with this type of antenna? 73 de Dave KJ6CBS
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I have decades of experience with trying to operate out of 2nd story or higher apartments. My findings are the biggest difficulties are:
- grounding - getting the antenna outside. To sum it up, the interiors of most apartments are essentially RF anechoic chambers. This is due to the structures and wiring which basically form a gigantic Faraday cage around your antenna when it's inside. When it's on the 2nd floor, the problem is compounded by being too far above the ground to get a good ground. So basically, it's less important what type of antenna you use than it is to merely get it outside. What I've done in the past is just throw a wire out the window into a neighboring tree and just hope the apt. managers don't notice it's there. Even dangling the wire out of the window towards the ground will work better than trying to string something up inside. What I did was buy a Buddipole and pelican case for my rigs, and do all my operating /p. It's inconvenient at night, of course, but it does get me outside and gives me some exercise. Otherwise, like I said, priority #1 is just to get whatever it is outside the building. And that usually means a wire and a tuner in the rig.... 73, LS W5QD |
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In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list
Hi David,
I'm a little puzzled by your question, and I suspect others are too. The isotropic antenna is a theoretical construct which is sometimes used as a baseline for the comparison of other antennas; it is not possible to build one. The most primitive antenna that can actually be built is a dipole (but don't take primitive to mean ineffective!). Having recently taken up ham radio again, in an urban QTH, I would very much *not* recommend a dipole for your use case. I wasted a lot of time trying to get a loaded dipole to work well in my attic. Then I started reading about small magnetic loop antennas, built one for myself, and never looked back. I now mercilessly evangelize them to anyone who will listen. Some reading on mag loops here: http://www.g4ilo.com/stealth.html http://www.ahars.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/The-Underestimated-Magnetic-Loop-HF-Antenna-version-1.1.pdf The quickest way to get started with mag loops is probably to pick up one of these MFJ units: http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Product.php?productid=MFJ-9232 (QRP) http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Product.php?productid=MFJ-933 (QRO) The QRP model includes wire, the QRO doesn't. Bruce On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 8:37 PM David Guernsey via Elecraft < [hidden email]> wrote: > I live in a 2nd floor condo and am considering an isotropic antennaa on my > balcony for 10/15/20 meters. Anybody have any experience with this type of > antenna? 73 de Dave KJ6CBS > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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Bruce makes a good point, which I overlooked also. Yes, the isotropic antenna is just an ideal and where the term "dbi" comes from - the gain in DB over the theoretical isotropic 0db-gain antenna.
I too intend to try a mag loop antenna at some point in time, probably the next time I get tired of humping my /p rig around or I get rained on real good hi hi. 73, LS W5QD. |
Re: [k3] Isotropic Antenna
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In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list
Let me be the third to recommend a mag loop. Not too handy for contesting, VERY high Q. Therefore has a high 'fiddle factor'. But nonetheless very usable.
My $0.02... 73 and gud DX Gil, W1RG -------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by lstavenhagen
MFJ makes a couple of magnetic loops with remote tuners etc. Pricey, but
I have heard a few of them and they were doing OK - even the one on 40 meters. Bill W2BLC K-Line ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Bruce Nourish
> The > isotropic antenna is a theoretical construct which is sometimes used as a > baseline for the comparison of other antennas; it is not possible to build > one. Actually you can come pretty close to an isotropic antenna by using two center fed dipoles arranged at 90 degrees to each other and fed 90 degrees out of phase. Not exactly a isotropic radiator, but pretty close. IIRC they can either be both horizontal or one horizontal and the other vertical. I'd have to re-run the models again to be sure. And I have compared small loops to dipoles. I did not use a loaded dipole but, like Ron, a non-resonant wire fed with open wire or ladder line. The non-resonant wire won by a wide margin in the comparisons. 73 de dave ab9ca/4 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Bruce Nourish
On 4/6/2016 1:05 PM, Bruce Nourish wrote:
> I'm a little puzzled by your question, and I suspect others are too. The > isotropic antenna is a theoretical construct which is sometimes used as a > baseline for the comparison of other antennas; it is not possible to build > one. The most primitive antenna that can actually be built is a dipole (but > don't take primitive to mean ineffective!). Just a wild guess ... he might have meant "Isotron?" > > Then I started > reading about small magnetic loop antennas, built one for myself, and never > looked back. I now mercilessly evangelize them to anyone who will listen. I use an Alexloop with my K2 @ 5W for field operating. It works better than the BP I had. The only reason I sprang for the Alex [somewhat spendy as they say in OR] was that it was close to what I got for the BP. You can homebrew one much cheaper ... but see comments on efficiency below. The Alex is very easy to set up, takes me about 5 min, is light [~0.7 kg] and fits in my pack well. It is also very hi-Q and the BW on 40 m is barely wide enough for SSB. It is very touchy to tune on the lower frequencies. The radiation resistance, particularly on lower frequencies is minuscule, in the range of a few tens of milliohms. Thus, any resistance at all in the loop and cap can lead to very low efficiencies [e.g. use a butterfly cap to eliminate wiper resistance]. It is a resonant transformer and it is absolutely essential that you bypass any ATU and tune it exactly to resonance. Fortunately, the W1 wattmeter and the K2 both display SWR. Getting it close and then letting the ATU do the rest results in a fairly expensive dummy load with a great match. And a caution -- small magnetic loops can involve some surprisingly high voltages and circulating currents, even at 5-10 W. They get into the KV range at 100 W or more. Small mag loops are pretty much insensitive to ground and nearby objects since, unless you are set up in a railroad yard, the permeability of most things around us and the ground is close to vacuum permeability. I sit under mine, I can reach up and tune it. It has a bi-cardioid pattern, fairly broad forward lobes in the plane of the loop, and two sharp nulls orthogonal to the loop plane. I never really mastered the BP tuning and, as a short loaded OCF dipole or vertical, its BW was very narrow too. Antenna theory and practice are remarkably well defined [and close], and if someone offers you a "magic" antenna that's small and has the performance of 4 over 4 over 4 on 20, check and see if he also has ocean-front property in Colorado Springs for sale. :-) 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2016 - www.cqp.org ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by lstavenhagen
Apartments and condos can be a challenge but not an insurmountable one. A
balcony helps a lot. I mount a hamstick for the band du jour on my 5th floor balcony rail and throw a quarter wave counterpoise over the side. Neighbors and condo police haven't noticed (or don't care). Basically a bent dipole and the ATU makes the rig happy. 155 countries says it works pretty well. 73, Ian N8IK s/n 10111 -----Original Message----- From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of lstavenhagen Sent: Wednesday, April 6, 2016 16:04 To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [k3] Isotropic Antenna I have decades of experience with trying to operate out of 2nd story or higher apartments. My findings are the biggest difficulties are: - grounding - getting the antenna outside. To sum it up, the interiors of most apartments are essentially RF anechoic chambers. This is due to the structures and wiring which basically form a gigantic Faraday cage around your antenna when it's inside. When it's on the 2nd floor, the problem is compounded by being too far above the ground to get a good ground. So basically, it's less important what type of antenna you use than it is to merely get it outside. What I've done in the past is just throw a wire out the window into a neighboring tree and just hope the apt. managers don't notice it's there. Even dangling the wire out of the window towards the ground will work better than trying to string something up inside. What I did was buy a Buddipole and pelican case for my rigs, and do all my operating /p. It's inconvenient at night, of course, but it does get me outside and gives me some exercise. Otherwise, like I said, priority #1 is just to get whatever it is outside the building. And that usually means a wire and a tuner in the rig.... 73, LS W5QD -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/k3-Isotropic-Antenna-tp7615991p7615992. html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7497 / Virus Database: 4545/11969 - Release Date: 04/05/16 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Bruce Nourish
Hi Bruce and others,
I am sure that David talked about an Isotron antennas like this: https://www.isotronantennas.com/ I intensively tested/used this antenna in 90's on 40m (product from Sigi, DK9FN) and I have to say it is a nightmare in overall. From my own experiences the performance of this toy was highly dependent to the grounding availability, bandwidth was very small and tunning was influenced not by ground only but also by closed objects a lot. Also the weather changes made bad impact for SWR like snow, rain etc. Finally in 90's this toy was quite new and like any fashionable piece it was really overpriced. David, As you can see the price these days is not so high but I do not believe that something changed in its performances. If you would like to spend time with playing around it (instead of enjoying the on-air operation) then you can build it ownself as there is nothing magic on it. In any case do not waste your money with buying it. Hope it helps, 73 - Petr, OK1RP
73 - Petr, OK1RP
"Apple & Elecraft freak" B:http://ok1rp.blogspot.com MeWe: https://bit.ly/2HGPoDx MeWe: https://bit.ly/2FmwvDt |
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I agree with Peter and share the same experience as Peter. The antenna works but only in some particular conditions.
Waste my time. Of course, I can be blamed about not clever enough to use it. 73 Johnny VR2XMC 寄件人︰ "Petr, OK1RP/M0SIS" <[hidden email]> 收件人︰ [hidden email] 傳送日期︰ 2016年04月7日 (週四) 5:41 PM 主題︰ Re: [Elecraft] [k3] Isotropic Antenna Hi Bruce and others, I am sure that David talked about an Isotron antennas like this: https://www.isotronantennas.com/ I intensively tested/used this antenna in 90's on 40m (product from Sigi, DK9FN) and I have to say it is a nightmare in overall. From my own experiences the performance of this toy was highly dependent to the grounding availability, bandwidth was very small and tunning was influenced by ground only but also by closed objects a lot. Also the weather changes made bad impact for SWR like snow, rain etc. Finally in 90's this toy was quite new and like any fashionable piece it was really overpriced. David, As you can see the price these days is not so high but I do not believe that something changed in its performances. If you would like to spend time with playing around it (instead of enjoying the on-air operation) then you can build it ownself as there is nothing magic on it. In any case do not waste your money with buying it. Hope it helps, 73 - Petr, OK1RP ----- http://ok1rp.blogspot.com -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/k3-Isotropic-Antenna-tp7615991p7616011.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Petr, OK1RP/M0SIS
This so-called "antenna" is at best dumb, and at worst a rip-off. As
master antenna-designer N6BT wrote some years ago, "everything 'works,' even a light bulb." He demonstrated this by mounting a a light bulb on a wooden fencepost, feeding with coax that he had carefully choked so that the coax could not radiate, and working all continents with it. As others have noted, antennas like magnetic loops, loaded whips (HamSticks, etc.), and long wires are the weapons of choice with limited space and/or requirements of minimal visibility. If the frame of the building is non-metallic, indoor antennas can work (but can also be mondo noisy on RX). If the frame is metallic, the antenna must be outside. The good news is that the building frame will work fine as a counterpoise (although it may block the antenna in the direction of the building). A long wire launched away from the building is best -- small diameter enameled wire can be hard to see, and works fine as an antenna. 73, Jim K9YC On Thu,4/7/2016 2:41 AM, Petr, OK1RP/M0SIS wrote: > I am sure that David talked about an Isotron antennas like this: > https://www.isotronantennas.com/ > > I intensively tested/used this antenna in 90's on 40m (product from Sigi, > DK9FN) and I have to say it is a nightmare in overall. From my own > experiences the performance of this toy was highly dependent to the > grounding availability, bandwidth was very small and tunning was influenced > by ground only but also by closed objects a lot. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: [k3] Isotropic Antenna
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I wrote an article for 73 many years ago where I effectively remade the
Isotron antenna with parts from Home Depot. At the time, a 20 meter version could be built for about $15. I tested my version extensively and for the most part a dipole made with two Hamsticks was quite superior. They resonate, have good SWR bandwidth and generally radiate 5 watts of the 100 watts that goes into them. A "magnetic loop" blows it away. I sold the sample Isotron I bought at a hamfest for $5. (Bottom line - they are, as we say in the software business, crapware) Doug -- K0DXV On 4/7/2016 5:12 PM, Jim Brown wrote: > This so-called "antenna" is at best dumb, and at worst a rip-off. As > master antenna-designer N6BT wrote some years ago, "everything > 'works,' even a light bulb." He demonstrated this by mounting a a > light bulb on a wooden fencepost, feeding with coax that he had > carefully choked so that the coax could not radiate, and working all > continents with it. > > As others have noted, antennas like magnetic loops, loaded whips > (HamSticks, etc.), and long wires are the weapons of choice with > limited space and/or requirements of minimal visibility. If the frame > of the building is non-metallic, indoor antennas can work (but can > also be mondo noisy on RX). If the frame is metallic, the antenna must > be outside. The good news is that the building frame will work fine as > a counterpoise (although it may block the antenna in the direction of > the building). A long wire launched away from the building is best -- > small diameter enameled wire can be hard to see, and works fine as an > antenna. > > 73, Jim K9YC > > On Thu,4/7/2016 2:41 AM, Petr, OK1RP/M0SIS wrote: >> I am sure that David talked about an Isotron antennas like this: >> https://www.isotronantennas.com/ >> >> I intensively tested/used this antenna in 90's on 40m (product from >> Sigi, >> DK9FN) and I have to say it is a nightmare in overall. From my own >> experiences the performance of this toy was highly dependent to the >> grounding availability, bandwidth was very small and tunning was >> influenced >> by ground only but also by closed objects a lot. > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: [k3] Isotropic Antenna
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The issue was June 1998. The article was focused on how to construct
one. 73 (Wayne Green) wasn't interested in all the tables of performance data. He also wasn't interested in an excellent interview I did with Wayne and Eric early on. In so many words he was pretty clear that unless Elecraft was going to be a regular advertiser, he wasn't going to devote space to promoting what was essentially a startup at the time. Poor judgement on his part. I think Wayne Green perfectly defined the term curmudgeon. Doug -- K0DXV On 4/8/2016 10:13 PM, Walter Underwood wrote: > The archives for 73 Magazine are online, so if you remember when, folks could read the article. > > https://archive.org/details/73-magazine <https://archive.org/details/73-magazine> > > wunder > K6WRU > Walter Underwood > CM87wj > http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog) > >> On Apr 8, 2016, at 8:05 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> I wrote an article for 73 many years ago where I effectively remade the Isotron antenna with parts from Home Depot. At the time, a 20 meter version could be built for about $15. I tested my version extensively and for the most part a dipole made with two Hamsticks was quite superior. >> >> They resonate, have good SWR bandwidth and generally radiate 5 watts of the 100 watts that goes into them. A "magnetic loop" blows it away. I sold the sample Isotron I bought at a hamfest for $5. (Bottom line - they are, as we say in the software business, crapware) >> >> Doug -- K0DXV >> >> On 4/7/2016 5:12 PM, Jim Brown wrote: >>> This so-called "antenna" is at best dumb, and at worst a rip-off. As master antenna-designer N6BT wrote some years ago, "everything 'works,' even a light bulb." He demonstrated this by mounting a a light bulb on a wooden fencepost, feeding with coax that he had carefully choked so that the coax could not radiate, and working all continents with it. >>> >>> As others have noted, antennas like magnetic loops, loaded whips (HamSticks, etc.), and long wires are the weapons of choice with limited space and/or requirements of minimal visibility. If the frame of the building is non-metallic, indoor antennas can work (but can also be mondo noisy on RX). If the frame is metallic, the antenna must be outside. The good news is that the building frame will work fine as a counterpoise (although it may block the antenna in the direction of the building). A long wire launched away from the building is best -- small diameter enameled wire can be hard to see, and works fine as an antenna. >>> >>> 73, Jim K9YC >>> >>> On Thu,4/7/2016 2:41 AM, Petr, OK1RP/M0SIS wrote: >>>> I am sure that David talked about an Isotron antennas like this: >>>> https://www.isotronantennas.com/ >>>> >>>> I intensively tested/used this antenna in 90's on 40m (product from Sigi, >>>> DK9FN) and I have to say it is a nightmare in overall. From my own >>>> experiences the performance of this toy was highly dependent to the >>>> grounding availability, bandwidth was very small and tunning was influenced >>>> by ground only but also by closed objects a lot. >>> ______________________________________________________________ >>> Elecraft mailing list >>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >>> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >>> >>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >>> Message delivered to [hidden email] >>> >> ______________________________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> Message delivered to [hidden email] > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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Years ago, a local ham who was acting as an Isotron distributor brought
the 80 meter version to the club's Field Day. I discovered I got out a lot better by unscrewing the shield of the coax connector and just using the feedline as an antenna. :=) Alan N1AL On 04/09/2016 07:17 AM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote: > The issue was June 1998. The article was focused on how to construct > one. 73 (Wayne Green) wasn't interested in all the tables of > performance data. ... > > On 4/8/2016 10:13 PM, Walter Underwood wrote: >> The archives for 73 Magazine are online, so if you remember when, >> folks could read the article. >> >> https://archive.org/details/73-magazine >> <https://archive.org/details/73-magazine> >> >> wunder >> K6WRU >> Walter Underwood >> CM87wj >> http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog) >> >>> On Apr 8, 2016, at 8:05 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft >>> <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> They resonate, have good SWR bandwidth and generally radiate 5 watts >>> of the 100 watts that goes into them. A "magnetic loop" blows it >>> away. I sold the sample Isotron I bought at a hamfest for $5. >>> (Bottom line - they are, as we say in the software business, crapware) >>> >>> >>> On 4/7/2016 5:12 PM, Jim Brown wrote: >>>> This so-called "antenna" is at best dumb, and at worst a rip-off. On Thu,4/7/2016 2:41 AM, Petr, OK1RP/M0SIS wrote: >>>>> I am sure that David talked about an Isotron antennas like this: >>>>> https://www.isotronantennas.com/ >>>>> >>>>> I intensively tested/used this antenna in 90's on 40m (product >>>>> from Sigi, >>>>> DK9FN) and I have to say it is a nightmare in overall. From my own >>>>> experiences the performance of this toy was highly dependent to the >>>>> grounding availability, bandwidth was very small and tunning was >>>>> influenced >>>>> by ground only but also by closed objects a lot. >>>> ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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