monitor delay

[DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL]

Lyle said:
"...Most people do not notice..."

Maybe most people simply don't complain?  I have lots of friends with
K3s (I mean LOTS) and I am not aware of even one who does NOT notice
the delay.  Of course, all my friends are contesters, so maybe we are
a "picky" group.  :-)

I found it better to do an on-air adjustment with someone who knows my
voice AND is a contester.  They know how "it should sound."  I go on
blind faith that what they tell me to do is working to my
benefit...works so far.

de Doug KR2Q
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[alorona]

I just consulted with my wife about this. She is a speeth pathologist and audiologist.

There is actually a slight benefit to be gained by delaying the monitor signal ever so slightly. The benefit is you hear yourself a bit more accurately than if there were no delay whatsoever.

The reason is called "bone conduction". Plug both of your ears securely with your fingers and talk. You can still hear yourself, and this is due to the bone mass between your mouth and your inner ear conducting sound. When you're adjusting your transmit audio you don't want bone conduction interfering with how you really sound.

Although the best method remains having someone else listen to your transmit audio while you speak, you can help your brain tune out the bone-conducted sound to a degree if the sound reaching your ears is delayed a little bit.

This is a happy side effect of the delay in the monitor.

Al  W6LX
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[alorona]

And the first thing I'm going to do is take *speech* (not speeth) therapy from her. Sorry about the typo.

Al W6LX



----- Original Message ----
From: Al Lorona <[hidden email]>
To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Sent: Fri, January 15, 2010 5:37:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] monitor delay

I just consulted with my wife about this. She is a speeth pathologist and audiologist.
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[Jim Brown-10]

On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 19:29:33 -0500, DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL wrote:

>Maybe most people simply don't complain?

ALL digital systems have some delay (known as "latency") for
two reasons. First, there must be A/D and D/A conversion.
Second, any DSP system requires some processing cycles to do
what it does. The amount of latency (in msec) depends on the
sampling rate, the bandwidth, the number of bits, the speed of
the processors, how much processing is going on, and to some
extent, the skill of the programmer. If both radios use DSP,
their latencies are additive.

We humans don't notice the delay unless we have something to
compare it to. That can be the live sound of our own voice, or
the audio from your transmitter monitored in another receiver.
And we're sort of used to delay -- it takes time for sound to
travel through the air, roughly 0.8msec per foot (varies a bit
with temperature).  

The internet has a lot of latency -- 50-100msec is typical.
This is one of the key issues with a remote station, and it
makes contesting from a remote station a real challenge.
Internet latencies are additive to the velocity of propagation,
and are due to the TCP/IP protocols used to route data packets
and the communications between equipment that routes those data
packets.

73,

Jim Brown K9YC


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[Gary Hinson]

> Lyle said:
> "...Most people do not notice..."
>
> Maybe most people simply don't complain?  I have lots of friends with
> K3s (I mean LOTS) and I am not aware of even one who does NOT notice
> the delay.  Of course, all my friends are contesters, so maybe we are
> a "picky" group.  :-)

I also notice the SSB monitor delay.  Doesn't sound too good but, being 99% CW apart from
aberrations such as CQ WW SSB, I don't really mind.

73,
Gary  ZL2iFB


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[Grant Youngman]

>>
>> Maybe most people simply don't complain?  I have lots of friends with
>> K3s (I mean LOTS) and I am not aware of even one who does NOT notice
>> the delay.  Of course, all my friends are contesters, so maybe we are
>> a "picky" group.  :-)

"Picky" ... hmmmmm.  I'd worry most about the fact that you apparently have no other friends :-)

Actually, I wonder why we're now stuck on monitor delay.  In a digital system, you can't get around it.  It's there ...  period.  The option, of course, is to go back to an all analog transmit chain, with no digital delays.  And that isn't going to happen.  

Perhaps just getting over it and finding something else to be bothered about is the best approach :-)

Grant/NQ5T
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[Julian, G4ILO]

DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL wrote

Lyle said:
"...Most people do not notice..."

Maybe most people simply don't complain?

Oh come on. This *is* the Elecraft reflector! :)

[oe9fwv]

hi all,

DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL schrieb am 15 Jan 2010 um 19:29:

> Lyle said:
> "...Most people do not notice..."
>
> Maybe most people simply don't complain?  I have lots of friends with
> K3s (I mean LOTS) and I am not aware of even one who does NOT notice
> the delay.  Of course, all my friends are contesters, so maybe we are
> a "picky" group.  :-)
>
> I found it better to do an on-air adjustment with someone who knows my
> voice AND is a contester.  They know how "it should sound."  I go on blind
> faith that what they tell me to do is working to my benefit...works so far.

I do notice the delay and it is a reason for me not to use Monitor when
QSO'ing. The delay irritates me when I am talking. I find MON very useful
to adjust my modulation though with TX off, it is a great feature.
Listening to records of my modulation on the air is better of course, but
for a coarse estimation how it sounds it is nice to have. (in the
direction of would miss it if it were not there)


73! de Werner OE9FWV

--
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[Oliver Grossmann]

Hi all,

There will be always people they care about the delay and people they
don't care about it.
A year ago I talked about this topic in this list.

I use the monitor for 2 thinks:
1st) to adjust audio. For this it is great to have it after all signal
processing and delay isn't critical.
2nd) to monitor me during operation. If I use good audio shielded
Headphones i going to speek loud, but if i bring back my Audio via
monitor, I keep my voice down. The delay of the K3 is making me slow in
big Pile Ups because i have to speek fast. The only solution for me is
to switch off monitor in Pile Ups and shout again.

I'm thinking to build an external audio amp for this 2nd monitor feature.

This is the only disadvantage of the K3 compared to my TS850 i
discovered until now.

Olli, DH2WQ

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oliver Grossmann | DH2WQ | [hidden email]



Dr. Werner Furlan schrieb:

> hi all,
>
> DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL schrieb am 15 Jan 2010 um 19:29:
>
>  
>> Lyle said:
>> "...Most people do not notice..."
>>
>> Maybe most people simply don't complain?  I have lots of friends with
>> K3s (I mean LOTS) and I am not aware of even one who does NOT notice
>> the delay.  Of course, all my friends are contesters, so maybe we are
>> a "picky" group.  :-)
>>
>> I found it better to do an on-air adjustment with someone who knows my
>> voice AND is a contester.  They know how "it should sound."  I go on blind
>> faith that what they tell me to do is working to my benefit...works so far.
>>    
>
> I do notice the delay and it is a reason for me not to use Monitor when
> QSO'ing. The delay irritates me when I am talking. I find MON very useful
> to adjust my modulation though with TX off, it is a great feature.
> Listening to records of my modulation on the air is better of course, but
> for a coarse estimation how it sounds it is nice to have. (in the
> direction of would miss it if it were not there)
>
>
> 73! de Werner OE9FWV
>
>  

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