noise blanker
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Hi,
according to preview discussion on noise blanker of K3 I decided to write few words also as I have lot of experiences with that I guess... My antennas are really close to electric fence (just few metres) so the pulses on all bands with K3 are over S9+20dB ! A few points as the results of my tests and final settings which I am using on my K3 untill now. 1. Only the combination of the dsp and IF is able to kill the el.fence pulses 2. dsp/t1-7 does not help in my case with any combination of IF values 3. IF NAR/MED/WID does not help if values are lower than 4... 4. dsp/t2-5,6,7 or t3-5,6,7 values are really agressive and it suppressing the pulses effectively if its in combination with IF setting MED or WID with higher than 4 values. My standard setting to be able to live on the bands together with el.fence close to my antennas is: dsp t3-5 IF WID4 In case of dry weather I must switch to: dsp t3-7 IF WID5 THE MAIN PROBLEM IS that with the values higher than 5 on dsp/IF it affecting the receiving signals a lot. Even strong sigs on the bands are coloured a lot and its not copyable for speed higher than 30 wpm. The weak signals are destroyed with agressive dsp/IF setting so much that its useless on lowbands unfortunately. I am NOT anxious or even dissapointed with that as Elecraft boys still working on the DSP/IF noise blanker function code I guess and it takes time to debug it. 73, Petr OK1RP K3 #778 -- Petr Ourednik [hidden email] http://topband.blog.cz (160m) _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
73 - Petr, OK1RP
"Apple & Elecraft freak" B:http://ok1rp.blogspot.com MeWe: https://bit.ly/2HGPoDx MeWe: https://bit.ly/2FmwvDt |
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On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:55:54 +0200, "Petr Ourednik" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>Hi, > > >My antennas are really close to electric fence (just few metres) >so the pulses on all bands with K3 are over S9+20dB ! Ouch! Solution 1: Take one pickup truck and tie the back bumper to the fence with an insulated rope. Jump in the cab and pull the fence as far as you can away from your QTH and destroy the charger. Solution 2. Help your neighbor find a fence charger that is not so noisy. Solution 3. Move to another location. All the above is tongue in cheek. Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" An excerpt from a letter written in 1755 from the Assembly to the Governor of Pennsylvania. Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like. http://www.n5ge.com http://www.eQSL.cc/Member.cfm?N5GE _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
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In reply to this post by Petr, OK1RP/M0SIS
Hi,
Just for the record, my standard setting is: DSP t2-5 IF MED3 This is really effective for my power line noise. There are cases where the noise starts to come back when there are strong (SSB) signals in the passband but normally it remains blanked even then. Knut - AB2TC
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In reply to this post by N5GE
Electric fence chargers don't (normally) cause noise.
Its the installation of the wires they feed that causes noise. There are two kinds of chargers ... one generates a quick pulse ... a "pop" ... and the other generates a longer burst of energy and makes a "bzzzt" sound. The later is often called a "weed burner". It's intent is to burn away any weed that grows into contact with the fence. I have had good luck with asking / offering the owner if I can fix the fence, with an emphasis on "it will work better when I'm through". They're almost always put up poorly, with no knowledge of how to do the job correctly. Joints are made by simply making two loops together like one would link two index fingers together. These need to be twisted ... tightly. Ditto for the tie-wires used to fasten wire to insulators. Sometimes there are -NO- insulators used on wood fence posts, and I have found the charged wire stapled to the post. If the staple isn't tight, a tiny arc will result. This is one common source of "power line noise" on power line distribution system pole ground wires, BTW. It's been known to set poles ablaze. There are insulated gate hooks that are fine sources of noise. Look at an electric fence as an antenna and construct it in the same way. It will be much more likely to be "quiet". Again, the noise isn't from the charger ... it's generated along the wire. Carrying an AM radio along the fence may be helpful and is useful in illustrating to the fence owner what you're talking about. He/she may already be aware of the noise and not know the source. (:-)) 73! Ken Kopp - K0PP [hidden email] _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by N5GE
Solution 4:
Remind the neighbor that interference from an electric fence is not permitted. Even though such interference falls under the umbrella of "incidental radiation", it still must not interfere with the operation of a licensed radio station. There are some fairly recent (within the past 5 years or so) cases where the FCC got involved in this type of problem, and some substantial fines were assessed. A search of QST archives should turn up some of Riley's correspondence on these issues. Attempting to work out the issues with the neighbor may be useful, as electric fences are not supposed to radiate, and there may be repair actions that can substantially reduce or eliminate the problem. However, I advise anyone with this sort of problem that the only assistance you should provide is in identification of the noise source, and monitoring to verify that repairs have been effective. Do not under any circumstances attempt to repair the equipment yourself! Not only can such equipment generate hazardous voltages, if you make a repair, successful or not, you could find yourself liable for damages should anyone subsequently be injured by this same system. You could also find yourself sued for the cost of later repair or replacement under the assumption that since you are not a professional service person for the device, whatever you did "caused" any subsequent problems. - Jim, KL7CC _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Ken Kopp-3
I gotta chime in here. I have an electric fence. It is put up correctly, and it
does pop on the radio. It is nice though that the K3 noise blanker either eliminates it or at least reduces it to a manageable level...usually depends on the band. ------------------------- 73, Greg - AB7R Whidbey Island WA NA-065 On Thu Aug 21 14:19 , "Ken Kopp" sent: >Electric fence chargers don't (normally) cause noise. >Its the installation of the wires they feed that causes >noise. > >There are two kinds of chargers ... one generates a >quick pulse ... a "pop" ... and the other generates a >longer burst of energy and makes a "bzzzt" sound. >The later is often called a "weed burner". It's intent >is to burn away any weed that grows into contact with >the fence. > >I have had good luck with asking / offering the owner >if I can fix the fence, with an emphasis on "it will work >better when I'm through". > >They're almost always put up poorly, with no knowledge >of how to do the job correctly. Joints are made by simply >making two loops together like one would link two index >fingers together. These need to be twisted ... tightly. >Ditto for the tie-wires used to fasten wire to insulators. > >Sometimes there are -NO- insulators used on wood fence >posts, and I have found the charged wire stapled to the >post. If the staple isn't tight, a tiny arc will result. This is >one common source of "power line noise" on power line >distribution system pole ground wires, BTW. It's been known >to set poles ablaze. There are insulated gate hooks that are >fine sources of noise. > >Look at an electric fence as an antenna and construct it >in the same way. It will be much more likely to be "quiet". > >Again, the noise isn't from the charger ... it's generated >along the wire. Carrying an AM radio along the fence may >be helpful and is useful in illustrating to the fence owner what >you're talking about. He/she may already be aware of the >noise and not know the source. (:-)) > >73! Ken Kopp - K0PP > [hidden email] >_______________________________________________ >Elecraft mailing list >Post to: [hidden email] >You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Hi Greg,
I have three within a block of me that I've "fixed" and aren't a problem ... BUT none on my own property. (:-)) Isn't this a form of self-inflicted injury? I've heard that most critters ... once bit ... never approach the fence again. Maybe that would work in your case, or maybe intermittent operation would fool 'em. 73! Ken _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by N5GE
I have found that if there are weeds growing near any of the wires, the
noise will arc. I suggested to my neighbor that I could hear his fence and what caused the issue. He took care of it... for awhile.... Maybe the old pony will pass in the next couple of years and that will be the end of it. I use the DSP with some limited effect because it creates more artifacts than it cures with the fence noise. Oh, my TS-2000 has the same issue... worse, actually. I like solution 1! Just if I could pull it off without the horse noticing me! 72, Bill K9YEQ K2 #35, K2 # 5279, KX1 #35, Mini Modules, etc. -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tom Childers, N5GE Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 3:42 PM To: Petr Ourednik Cc: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] noise blanker On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:55:54 +0200, "Petr Ourednik" <[hidden email]> wrote: >Hi, > > >My antennas are really close to electric fence (just few metres) >so the pulses on all bands with K3 are over S9+20dB ! Ouch! Solution 1: Take one pickup truck and tie the back bumper to the fence with an insulated rope. Jump in the cab and pull the fence as far as you can away from your QTH and destroy the charger. Solution 2. Help your neighbor find a fence charger that is not so noisy. Solution 3. Move to another location. All the above is tongue in cheek. _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Perhaps a midnight excursion to install an "invisible" ground
would do the trick. Just remember to hook up the ground end FIRST! Once bit, many critters never approach an electric fence again. 73! Ken Kopp - K0PP [hidden email] _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Ken Kopp-3
> Again, the noise isn't from the charger ... it's generated
> along the wire. Carrying an AM radio along the fence may > be helpful and is useful in illustrating to the fence > owner what > you're talking about. He/she may already be aware of the > noise and not know the source. (:-)) While it is true most problems seem to be caused by bad connections in the fence, the most severe problem I had with an electric fence was caused by a charger! The charger was sent back and the replacement charger produced exactly the same problem. I put RF chokes on it, ferrite beads, you name it. My neighbor switched to a different brand and the problem vanished. I've generally had varying success with an AM broadcast radio, but a VHF aircraft radio always lets me walk right up to the bad area. 73 Tom _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Re: Even more OT: Electric fences
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In reply to this post by Ken Kopp-3
Ken Kopp wrote:
> I've heard that most critters ... once bit ... never approach > the fence again. Maybe that would work in your case, or > maybe intermittent operation would fool 'em. A few years ago I was living down in Albuquerque in the North Valley area. This is horse country, and my property adjoined a small rancho where riding horses were stabled. One of the horses struck up a friendship with my border collie Meg, and would come over to the fence to hang out with her. One day I decided to go out and give him an apple, to see if I could make friends with him, too. I knew there was an electric fence wire there, but when I touched it gingerly, nothing happened. I assumed it was dead and had been abandoned, like so many other old electric fences I had seen as a kid growing up in the countryside of upstate New York. Anyway, I had to reach my arm well through the fence to reach the horse. He liked the apple and whickered softly, coming a little closer. I got a left-handed grip on the wire fencing to steady myself and reached out to pet him on his nose with the other. ZAAAPPP!!! Both the horse and I jumped backwards reflexively. I yelped, he whinnied. What had happened? The fence wasn't dead; in fact, it was thoroughly functional. I felt nothing when touching it because I was wearing rubber-soled sneakers; the horse, however, was wearing iron horseshoes. The current went from the wire through my left arm, my chest, and my right arm to the horse's nose, down through the horse to his horseshoes and into the damp ground. He never came around again to hang out with Meg. I felt awful about it, but there was not much I could do. :-( He had learned his lesson, to my sorrow, and I had learned mine: Don't ever assume an electric fence is dead! This fence, BTW, produced no noise on 6 meters that I could detect. Bill W5WVO _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Ken Kopp-3
Hmmmm. So let's make a fence charger that doesn't turn on the high
voltage until it senses something touching the fence. 73 -- Joe KB8AP On Aug 21, 2008, at 5:41 PM, Ken Kopp wrote: > > Once bit, many critters never approach an electric fence again. > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by W8JI
I have a pulse noise that I thought was a fence charger, but it is to the north and the only electric fence that I have found is south east. In another internet discussion someone mentioned that he had traced a similar interference to a blinking caution light. Sure enough I have a blinking caution light 1.5 miles to the north. Fortunately for me the interference is very light and can only be heard on a nearly dead band. Fence chargers are not the only source of a pulse with about one second interval.
Willis 'Cookie' Cooke K5EWJ --- On Thu, 8/21/08, Tom W8JI <[hidden email]> wrote: > From: Tom W8JI <[hidden email]> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Electric fences > To: "Ken Kopp" <[hidden email]>, [hidden email] > Date: Thursday, August 21, 2008, 6:01 PM > > Again, the noise isn't from the charger ... > it's generated > > along the wire. Carrying an AM radio along the fence > may > > be helpful and is useful in illustrating to the fence > > > owner what > > you're talking about. He/she may already be aware > of the > > noise and not know the source. (:-)) > > While it is true most problems seem to be caused by bad > connections in the fence, the most severe problem I had > with > an electric fence was caused by a charger! The charger was > sent back and the replacement charger produced exactly the > same problem. I put RF chokes on it, ferrite beads, you > name > it. > > My neighbor switched to a different brand and the problem > vanished. > > I've generally had varying success with an AM broadcast > > radio, but a VHF aircraft radio always lets me walk right > up > to the bad area. > > 73 Tom > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
RE: Even more OT: Electric fences
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In reply to this post by Bill VanAlstyne W5WVO
Ken,
I'd also bet that the incident spoiled that horse on apples for life! Terry, W0FM -----Original Message----- From: Bill W5WVO [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 11:36 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Even more OT: Electric fences Ken Kopp wrote: > I've heard that most critters ... once bit ... never approach > the fence again. Maybe that would work in your case, or > maybe intermittent operation would fool 'em. A few years ago I was living down in Albuquerque in the North Valley area. This is horse country, and my property adjoined a small rancho where riding horses were stabled. One of the horses struck up a friendship with my border collie Meg, and would come over to the fence to hang out with her. One day I decided to go out and give him an apple, to see if I could make friends with him, too. I knew there was an electric fence wire there, but when I touched it gingerly, nothing happened. I assumed it was dead and had been abandoned, like so many other old electric fences I had seen as a kid growing up in the countryside of upstate New York. Anyway, I had to reach my arm well through the fence to reach the horse. He liked the apple and whickered softly, coming a little closer. I got a left-handed grip on the wire fencing to steady myself and reached out to pet him on his nose with the other. ZAAAPPP!!! Both the horse and I jumped backwards reflexively. I yelped, he whinnied. What had happened? The fence wasn't dead; in fact, it was thoroughly functional. I felt nothing when touching it because I was wearing rubber-soled sneakers; the horse, however, was wearing iron horseshoes. The current went from the wire through my left arm, my chest, and my right arm to the horse's nose, down through the horse to his horseshoes and into the damp ground. He never came around again to hang out with Meg. I felt awful about it, but there was not much I could do. :-( He had learned his lesson, to my sorrow, and I had learned mine: Don't ever assume an electric fence is dead! This fence, BTW, produced no noise on 6 meters that I could detect. Bill W5WVO _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
RE: Even more OT: Electric fences
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In reply to this post by Bill VanAlstyne W5WVO
Sorry, meant for Bill.
-----Original Message----- From: Bill W5WVO [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 11:36 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Even more OT: Electric fences Ken Kopp wrote: > I've heard that most critters ... once bit ... never approach > the fence again. Maybe that would work in your case, or > maybe intermittent operation would fool 'em. A few years ago I was living down in Albuquerque in the North Valley area. This is horse country, and my property adjoined a small rancho where riding horses were stabled. One of the horses struck up a friendship with my border collie Meg, and would come over to the fence to hang out with her. One day I decided to go out and give him an apple, to see if I could make friends with him, too. I knew there was an electric fence wire there, but when I touched it gingerly, nothing happened. I assumed it was dead and had been abandoned, like so many other old electric fences I had seen as a kid growing up in the countryside of upstate New York. Anyway, I had to reach my arm well through the fence to reach the horse. He liked the apple and whickered softly, coming a little closer. I got a left-handed grip on the wire fencing to steady myself and reached out to pet him on his nose with the other. ZAAAPPP!!! Both the horse and I jumped backwards reflexively. I yelped, he whinnied. What had happened? The fence wasn't dead; in fact, it was thoroughly functional. I felt nothing when touching it because I was wearing rubber-soled sneakers; the horse, however, was wearing iron horseshoes. The current went from the wire through my left arm, my chest, and my right arm to the horse's nose, down through the horse to his horseshoes and into the damp ground. He never came around again to hang out with Meg. I felt awful about it, but there was not much I could do. :-( He had learned his lesson, to my sorrow, and I had learned mine: Don't ever assume an electric fence is dead! This fence, BTW, produced no noise on 6 meters that I could detect. Bill W5WVO _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Greg - AB7R
I don't have any but several of my neighbors do. I told them my problem
and asked if they would mind if I just ran their fence line and fixed whatever I found every now and then. All welcomed me. The problem is almost always an arc to the T-post, a tree trunk, a tall weed that has grown up under the wire, and the like. Greg - AB7R wrote: > I gotta chime in here. I have an electric fence. It is put up correctly, and it > does pop on the radio. It is nice though that the K3 noise blanker either > eliminates it or at least reduces it to a manageable level...usually depends on the > Yep. One of the fences is over a mile long, and even though it is installed well and I've been its entire length and it is clear of arcs and bad splices, I can still hear it weakly. Ordinarily, the current drawn from the charger on a pulse is miniscule ... it's just a voltage pulse. I suspect that the long fence exhibits enough capacitance that it actually does draw current from the charger on each pulse, and Pwr = Voltage X Current. The K3 NB gets rid of all of it. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2008 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 08 - www.cqp.org _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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