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re KPA 500 and ATU

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n6fb

re KPA 500 and ATU

For many of us who are constrained to one non-resonant antenna and work
multiple bands, we are presently running amps with built-in ATU
functionality. All of the discussion on bypassing external relay boxes, etc, is of
value to those who are lucky enough to have space for multiple antennas, but
for those of us with one G5RV, it is academic.

>From the perspective of folks like me, Elecraft has either made a goof, or
a brilliant marketing decision in releasing the amp before the matching
ATU. I will not be ordering the amp until the ATU is available, which is a
bummer for me, but it self-limits the demand for the amp and avoids a pileup
of unfilled orders, which, I am guessing, was the original strategy.

When can we expect the ATU?
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N5GE

Re: re KPA 500 and ATU

Where did you get the room to put up a G5RV antenna? Aren't they 102 feet long?

I live on a lot whose back yard is 80 feet wide and 50 feet deep. Before I put
my tower up I had an inverted vee array of antennas that were resonant from 80m
to 10m including the WARC bands. The inverted vees all had the same feed point
on one 40 foot pole with a rope and pully, allowing the use of one coax at the
rig and the Alpha 87A.

>From the prospective of folks like me, people who lock themselves into using
antennas that rely on tuners for matching their antennas may have overlooked a
better solution for their desire to have multiband wire antennas.

That's probably not the case in your situation, but those who have the room to
do that will find that it is one way to have a resonant antenna on all the
bands.

I hope you find a solution to your antenna situation without resorting to
blaming Elecraft for it.

73 and good luck in the hobby,

Tom, N5GE

On Thu, 7 Apr 2011 09:01:47 -0400 (EDT), [hidden email] wrote:

>For many of us who are constrained to one non-resonant antenna and work
>multiple bands, we are presently running amps with built-in ATU
>functionality. All of the discussion on bypassing external relay boxes, etc, is of
>value to those who are lucky enough to have space for multiple antennas, but
>for those of us with one G5RV, it is academic.
>
>>From the perspective of folks like me, Elecraft has either made a goof, or
>a brilliant marketing decision in releasing the amp before the matching
>ATU. I will not be ordering the amp until the ATU is available, which is a
>bummer for me, but it self-limits the demand for the amp and avoids a pileup
>of unfilled orders, which, I am guessing, was the original strategy.
>
>When can we expect the ATU?
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Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

John Harper AE5X

re KPA 500 and ATU

In reply to this post by n6fb

For exactly the reason you mention, I'm not a fan of built-in tuners. They
limit flexibility.

Like you, I am limited to one antenna but don't consider it an impediment
- my dipole is thaaaaat close (holding fingers 1 inch/2.54 cm apart) to
having 300 countries to its credit. 271 of those are at 100 watts and it's
time to go after the rest, thus the amp.

For others needing help in justifying its purchase, I offer the following.
YMMV:
http://www.ae5x.com/blog/2011/04/07/the-voices-in-my-head/

John Harper
http://www.ae5x.com/blog

For many of us who are constrained to one non-resonant antenna and work
multiple bands, we are presently running amps with built-in ATU
functionality.

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Fred Atchley

re KPA 500 and ATU

In reply to this post by n6fb

Snip

For many of us who are constrained to one non-resonant antenna and work
multiple bands, we are presently running amps with built-in ATU
functionality. All of the discussion on bypassing external relay boxes,
etc, is of value to those who are lucky enough to have space for multiple
antennas, but for those of us with one G5RV, it is academic.

End snip

Hams have always had to think outside the box. I live in an area where
"stealth" antennas are the only way. The plan here is to hang a tuned 40 M
dipole under my "mystery" antenna which is very similar to your G5RV. That
way the KPA500 will be useful for my favorite band and be tested and ready
to go when the KAT500(?)is introduced.

Snip

>From the perspective of folks like me, Elecraft has either made a goof, or a
brilliant marketing decision in releasing the amp before the matching ATU.

End snip

As far as the Elecraft "brilliant marketing decision", that is a matter of
business survival. If they survive, then they can continue to provide hams
with excellent tools such as the K2, K3, P3, KPA500 and KAT500.

73, Fred

" Do or Do-not. There is no 'Try'..." ~ Yoda

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Gary Gregory

Re: re KPA 500 and ATU

In reply to this post by John Harper AE5X

*John,*
*
*
*An on-board ATU is not what I need either, the remote version of the
KAT-500 is ideal for my situation.*
*
*
*The trailer behind my motor home has the tower and all antenna feedlines
are right there so mounting the KAT-500 in the trailer reduces cabling to my
operating station.*
*
*
*I don't always put up all my resonant antennas due to space available and
in these cases I resort to multi-band antennas and use a desktop manual
tuner. This also works well.*
*
*
*The remote ATU will just make life much more convenient for me.*
*
*
*I am happy to wait a few months.*
*
*
*73's*
*Gary
*
On 8 April 2011 04:09, John Harper <[hidden email]> wrote:

> For exactly the reason you mention, I'm not a fan of built-in tuners. They
> limit flexibility.
>
> Like you, I am limited to one antenna but don't consider it an impediment
> - my dipole is thaaaaat close (holding fingers 1 inch/2.54 cm apart) to
> having 300 countries to its credit. 271 of those are at 100 watts and it's
> time to go after the rest, thus the amp.
>
> For others needing help in justifying its purchase, I offer the following.
> YMMV:
> http://www.ae5x.com/blog/2011/04/07/the-voices-in-my-head/
>
> John Harper
> http://www.ae5x.com/blog
>
>
>
> For many of us who are constrained to one non-resonant antenna and work
> multiple bands, we are presently running amps with built-in ATU
> functionality.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>

--

*VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile
Elecraft Equipment
K3 #679, KPA-500 #018
Living the dream!!!*
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ab2tc

Re: re KPA 500 and ATU

In reply to this post by John Harper AE5X

Hi,

That's a brilliant blog entry and it really resonates with me as I am in the exact same situation. If I can hear them I can *usually* work them but not always and that 5x boost probably would put me over the edge. My main worry isn't the 2K dollars but potential interference with my neighbors various electronics gadgets.

AB2TC - Knut

John Harper AE5X wrote

For exactly the reason you mention, I'm not a fan of built-in tuners. They
limit flexibility.

Like you, I am limited to one antenna but don't consider it an impediment
- my dipole is thaaaaat close (holding fingers 1 inch/2.54 cm apart) to
having 300 countries to its credit. 271 of those are at 100 watts and it's
time to go after the rest, thus the amp.

For others needing help in justifying its purchase, I offer the following.
YMMV:
http://www.ae5x.com/blog/2011/04/07/the-voices-in-my-head/

John Harper
http://www.ae5x.com/blog

<snip>

Tony Estep

Re: re KPA 500 and ATU

On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 4:07 PM, ab2tc <[hidden email]> wrote:

> That's a brilliant blog entry and it really resonates with me as I am in
> the
> exact same situation....
>
> John Harper AE5X wrote:
> >
> > ... I am limited to one antenna but don't consider it an impediment
> > - my dipole is thaaaaat close (holding fingers 1 inch/2.54 cm apart) to
> > having 300 countries to its credit....

Many hams are in that situation. They put up one antenna, the longest they
can fit, and then use it on 7 or even 8 bands. Even with 100 watts, one can
work *almost* all of the DX this way, but with propagation as it is, there
can be some areas that are hard to get to. From my QTH in Missouri, it's
very hard to get into south Asia with 100 watts and a back-yard wire, and
just about all the countries I still need are somewhere in that part of the
world. A few extra db will come in handy.

Tony KT0NY
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dhhdeh

re KPA 500 and ATU

In reply to this post by n6fb

I gotta say I’m with Bill-N6FB on this one.

I am interested in the KPA500 but disappointed
that it did not come with an on-board tuner or at
the same time as the KAT500… so now I am going to
wait to see what evolves with the KAT500 later on
before I take the plunge. I could buy an LDG
AT-600 but would prefer not to in the interim.

I run one non-resonant antenna here, a Carolina
Windom at 60 feet. And before some of you start
reminding about the inefficiencies of it, I've put
up a DXCC score of 346 confirmed with 100W. So it
works. My QTH is 92 feet ASL and 8 miles from the
Atlantic so nothing special with the QTH here.

Why my interest in the KPA500 now? With only 2
left for #1 DXCC I will need a RF boost especially
with this solar cycle looking like it’s a bust.

And I’d love to have the complete ‘K-Line’ here in
my station before it’s all over. (I had a heart
attack last year.....the clock is ticking.)

So Wayne and Eric, how about a bit more insight
and info on the projected status of the KAT500?

It would be appreciated here.

73 de N1LQ-Dave

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w0mu

Re: re KPA 500 and ATU

I thought Eric stated that they hoped the tuner would be out around the
fall time frame. When I last asked it was in design.

On 4/7/11 6:32 PM, David and Dianne on Comcast wrote:

> I gotta say I’m with Bill-N6FB on this one.
>
> I am interested in the KPA500 but disappointed
> that it did not come with an on-board tuner or at
> the same time as the KAT500… so now I am going to
> wait to see what evolves with the KAT500 later on
> before I take the plunge. I could buy an LDG
> AT-600 but would prefer not to in the interim.
>
> I run one non-resonant antenna here, a Carolina
> Windom at 60 feet. And before some of you start
> reminding about the inefficiencies of it, I've put
> up a DXCC score of 346 confirmed with 100W. So it
> works. My QTH is 92 feet ASL and 8 miles from the
> Atlantic so nothing special with the QTH here.
>
> Why my interest in the KPA500 now? With only 2
> left for #1 DXCC I will need a RF boost especially
> with this solar cycle looking like it’s a bust.
>
> And I’d love to have the complete ‘K-Line’ here in
> my station before it’s all over. (I had a heart
> attack last year.....the clock is ticking.)
>
> So Wayne and Eric, how about a bit more insight
> and info on the projected status of the KAT500?
>
> It would be appreciated here.
>
> 73 de N1LQ-Dave
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Johnny Siu

KPA 500 and ATU

Hello Mike and others,

IMHO, ATU is nearly a must. While we can have a well matched antenna, the ATU
serves two purposes:
1. a preselector gives some sort of improvement in selectivity under strong out
band QRM;
2. for whatever reasons there are something wrong with the 'well matched'
antenna, ATU is the one to be hit and not the expensive linear amplifier.

It would be my original idea of hand carrying back a KPA500 to Hong Kong while
in USA next month so as to save some overseas shipping costs. I would rather
wait for more information of KAT500.

Furthermore, there is only one RF input / output in KPA500. I need to think
about the arrangement for multi-antennas and 2 radios operation. Yes, I can
use third party antenna switchs for input / output. However, the cabling will
be as ugly as the PR6 at the back of my K3.

I would think Elecraft will allow more antenna sockets in the forthcoming
KAT500. Multi-antennas are not uncommon for ham radio even I am living in a
congested city like Hong Kong.

TNX & 73,

Johnny VR2XMC

________________________________
寄件人﹕ Mike Fatchett <[hidden email]>
收件人﹕ [hidden email]
傳送日期﹕ 2011/4/8 (五) 8:55:03 AM
主題： Re: [Elecraft] re KPA 500 and ATU

I thought Eric stated that they hoped the tuner would be out around the
fall time frame. When I last asked it was in design.

On 4/7/11 6:32 PM, David and Dianne on Comcast wrote:

Guy, K2AV

Re: re KPA 500 and ATU

In reply to this post by w0mu

An on-board tuner is impossible with the KPA500 and power supply in
the totally minimalist K3 case. The KPA500 is almost impossibly small
for amp + supply. This extreme compactness of the amplifier will be
the big selling point for many buyers. Maybe the KAT500 will be in a
P3 case.

The other thing is to remote the KAT500 (exactly what I do with
something like that). Putting it in the box with the KPA500 tosses
this very valuable option.

I think Wayne has this very well thought out. AND a company his size
can only successfully introduce so much at one time. We DO want him
to stay successful, profitable, and still updating firmware, and
introducing new stuff.

73, Guy

> On 4/7/11 6:32 PM, David and Dianne on Comcast wrote:
>> I gotta say I’m with Bill-N6FB on this one.
>>
>> I am interested in the KPA500 but disappointed
>> that it did not come with an on-board tuner or at
>> the same time as the KAT500… so now I am going to
>> wait to see what evolves with the KAT500 later on
>> before I take the plunge. I could buy an LDG
>> AT-600 but would prefer not to in the interim.
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Jim Brown-10

Re: KPA 500 and ATU

In reply to this post by Johnny Siu

On 4/7/2011 6:18 PM, Johnny Siu wrote:
> IMHO, ATU is nearly a must.

That depends a lot on your style of operating, your antennas, your
budget, and how much power you are willing to give away in the antenna
tuner. ARRL lab tests have shown that some antenna tuners are a lot more
efficient than others.

I have a half dozen wire antennas, and do a lot of contesting. I have
five of the high power Ten Tec 229 and 238 manual tuners, which have
better than average efficiency and antenna selector switching built in.
Each tuner is dedicated to one or two antennas, and each tuner feeds the
power amp through a selector switch.Before a contest, I simply set them
up for the bands and antennas I'll be working, and switch between them.
These tuners are widely available used for $250 $325, so I bought them
for not much more than the cost of one decent auto tuner. And because
all my eggs are not in one basket, I can split the tuners up between two
rig and amp combinations for SO2R operation.

Yes, auto tuners are nice, but they're not the only good way to skin a
cat. :)

73, Jim K9YC
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Johnny Siu

KPA 500 and ATU

Thanks Jim. I should qualify ATU as 'antenna tuning unit' instead of 'automatic
tuning unit'

My fingers just run too fast.
73,

Johnny VR2XMC

________________________________
寄件人﹕ Jim Brown <[hidden email]>
收件人﹕ [hidden email]
傳送日期﹕ 2011/4/8 (五) 2:51:03 PM
主題： Re: [Elecraft] KPA 500 and ATU

On 4/7/2011 6:18 PM, Johnny Siu wrote:
> IMHO, ATU is nearly a must.

That depends a lot on your style of operating, your antennas, your
budget, and how much power you are willing to give away in the antenna
tuner. ARRL lab tests have shown that some antenna tuners are a lot more
efficient than others.

I have a half dozen wire antennas, and do a lot of contesting. I have
five of the high power Ten Tec 229 and 238 manual tuners, which have
better than average efficiency and antenna selector switching built in.
Each tuner is dedicated to one or two antennas, and each tuner feeds the
power amp through a selector switch.Before a contest, I simply set them
up for the bands and antennas I'll be working, and switch between them.
These tuners are widely available used for $250 $325, so I bought them
for not much more than the cost of one decent auto tuner. And because
all my eggs are not in one basket, I can split the tuners up between two
rig and amp combinations for SO2R operation.

Yes, auto tuners are nice, but they're not the only good way to skin a
cat. :)

73, Jim K9YC
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Richard Squire - HB9ANM

Re: re KPA 500 and ATU

In reply to this post by dhhdeh

Come on, putting a 500 W PA into such a small enclosure is already an incredible achievement in itself (congrats, Elecrafters!) and a matching ATU cannot be built with miniature, surface-mounted type components, can it?
Let's stay realistic. If Elecraft is really going to offer the ATU in a P3-sized case, that will be yet another first in the industry. I'm looking forward to building and enjoying my KPA500, not trying to further improve it before it's there!

73
Richard - HB9ANM

David and Dianne on Comcast wrote

I am interested in the KPA500 but disappointed
that it did not come with an on-board tuner…

Richard - HB9ANM

alsopb

Re: KPA 500 and ATU

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

On 4/8/2011 06:51, Jim Brown wrote:

> On 4/7/2011 6:18 PM, Johnny Siu wrote:
>> IMHO, ATU is nearly a must.
>
> That depends a lot on your style of operating, your antennas, your
> budget, and how much power you are willing to give away in the antenna
> tuner. ARRL lab tests have shown that some antenna tuners are a lot more
> efficient than others.
>
>
> 73, Jim K9YC

Indeed. The biggest losses generally occur with attempts to match low
impedance antennas. That usually means trying to match an electrically
short antenna. I suspect that is pretty common application. Having the
tuner remote eliminates most of the feedline loss but not this impedance
matching loss.

Personally I'm not interested in having 100 -150 watts (out of the KPA's
500) disappear as heat in the tuner.

I'd wait and see how the KAT-3 stacks up loss wise for the type of
antenna situation you have.

73 de Brian/K3KO

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N5GE

Re: re KPA 500 and ATU

In reply to this post by Richard Squire - HB9ANM

Spot on Richard!

Tom
N5GE

On Fri, 8 Apr 2011 00:01:23 -0700 (PDT), Richard Squire - HB9ANM
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>Come on, putting a 500 W PA into such a small enclosure is already an
>incredible achievement in itself (congrats, Elecrafters!) and a matching ATU
>cannot be built with miniature, surface-mounted type components, can it?
>Let's stay realistic. If Elecraft is really going to offer the ATU in a
>P3-sized case, that will be yet another first in the industry. I'm looking
>forward to building and enjoying my KPA500, not trying to further improve it
>before it's there!
>
>73
>Richard - HB9ANM
>
>David and Dianne on Comcast wrote:
>>
>>
>> I am interested in the KPA500 but disappointed
>> that it did not come with an on-board tuner
>>
>
>
>-----
>Richard - HB9ANM

Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

w0mu

KAT500

There has been much speculation and suggestions for this new product. I
am sure the Elecraft team will produce another fine product. I doubt
they would be working on this product unless they felt that they could
improve upon what is already available on the market. I have a couple
of LDG tuners and they work very well. The issue I have with their
tuners is that the power handling capabilities are halved on 6m.

One of the design requirements for the new KAT500 is that it will handle
the full output of the KPA500 on all bands.

I would like to see multiple antenna inputs for the tuner and a way to
specify which one is used on which band.

A number of people have suggested a weatherproof unit for placement
directly at the antenna feed. In this setup extra inputs might be
wasted unless you ran your other feeds over to the tuner. Talking to
the remote tuner without extra control lines might be a challenge.

A wattmeter and SWR meter should probably be part of the unit.

I will be curious to see what the enclosure will be as I hope to take
one to J6 in November. I am not sure that the tuner could be made much
smaller than the K3 enclosure. Using the same enclosure is cheaper in
the long run and matches the the K-line ascetically.

It is refreshing to be able to exchange ideas so freely with the
manufacturer and actually receive prompt feedback!

Thanks Elecraft! It is a pleasure doing business with you and it is a
pleasure using your products!
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Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy

Re: KAT500

Indeed, being able to talk to a remote tuner without adding extra control
lines is desireable and can be achieved.

One method, which I used in a 1950s vintage homemade link coupled remote
tuner, makes use of "frequency sensitive" relays in the remote tuner to
control the tuner's band switching tasks, along with a simple servo
arrangement which tunes the motor driven variable capacitors for minimum SWR
as seen at the coax's connection to the link circuit during Tune.

Although the DC power required could be fed via the coax, I opted to use a
separate cable.

I believe that because the ICs used to generate audio tones and to decode
audio tones are so inexpensive these days, controlling remote devices by
means of audio tones sent down the coax feeder might be a better option.

The use of Fibre Optic in lieu of copper to carry multiple control tones is
an option I have been pondering for use in the future, but probably too
expensive for a commercial product.

73,
Geoff
GM4ESD

On April 08, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Mike Fatchett wrote:

<snip>

> I would like to see multiple antenna inputs for the tuner and a way to
> specify which one is used on which band.
>
> A number of people have suggested a weatherproof unit for placement
> directly at the antenna feed. In this setup extra inputs might be
> wasted unless you ran your other feeds over to the tuner. Talking to
> the remote tuner without extra control lines might be a challenge.
>
> A wattmeter and SWR meter should probably be part of the unit.
>
> I will be curious to see what the enclosure will be as I hope to take
> one to J6 in November. I am not sure that the tuner could be made much
> smaller than the K3 enclosure. Using the same enclosure is cheaper in
> the long run and matches the the K-line ascetically.