ridge vent as antenna?
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Has anyone had any experience loading an aluminum ridge vent as an antenna??
We just bought a second home, which is lovely (definition: my wife is thrilled with it!) but has restrictive covenants - no outside antennas. Grrr. I have mounted an ATU in the attic and attached a 1:1 balun directly to it, with about 25 ft of wire going out from each side - in other words, a non-resonant dipole - all inside the attic. It loads OK on all bands 80 thru 10 and I've made several decent contacts with it. What I don't like is that there is a lot of junk in the attic, like AC ductwork, tho most of it seems non-metallic. Mostly I don't like the aluminum ridge vent that runs the length of the attic - so I mounted the wire several feet below the ridge of the roof. Not sure how this affects the antenna, but it can't be very good. I am contemplating using the ridge vent as part of the antenna: I could position the ATU at one end of the attic, connect one side to the ridge vent and the other side to a stealth wire that I could run to a low tree or maybe the peak of the garage roof. Has anyone had any experience using ridge vents as antenna (or part of an antenna)? Effect of rain wetting the roof shingles? Comments?? 73 Ray K2HYD _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Your idea sounds promising, Ray. I haven't used a ridge vent, but my
current main stealth antenna is a piece of wire lying directly on the roof shingles along the roof ridge. I was concerned about the effects of rain/snow, but that hasn't been a problem. My wire is insulated, but occasionally gets completely buried in snow. Other than an occasional slight re-tuning from my ATU, seems to work equally well "wet or dry". Since you are using a remote ATU, I'd definitely give it a try. 73 Craig AC0DS _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Albers-2
Ray,
The ridgevent is not likely to be a continuous conductor. It would work fine if you bonded all the sections together - in dry weather that is - when it gets wet, the characteristics are likely to change because there will be conductivity to the shingles as well. An idea... What is the possibility of supporting a wire a short distance above the shingles (on the back side of the roof). You could use TV type standoffs screwed into the roof sheathing and tar or caulk around the bottom so the screw-hole is waterproofed - run the end of the wire through the endcap on the ridgevent for an end feed, or snake some ladderline through a small access cut into the center of the ridgevent for a center fed antenna (easier to feed IMHO). If the roof is not long enough to hold a decent length antenna, fold the ends and run them along the eves (again on standoff insulators). 73, Don W3FPR > -----Original Message----- > > > Has anyone had any experience loading an aluminum ridge vent as > an antenna?? > > We just bought a second home, which is lovely (definition: my > wife is thrilled with it!) but has restrictive covenants - no > outside antennas. Grrr. > > I have mounted an ATU in the attic and attached a 1:1 balun > directly to it, with about 25 ft of wire going out from each side > - in other words, a non-resonant dipole - all inside the attic. > It loads OK on all bands 80 thru 10 and I've made several decent > contacts with it. > > What I don't like is that there is a lot of junk in the attic, > like AC ductwork, tho most of it seems non-metallic. Mostly I > don't like the aluminum ridge vent that runs the length of the > attic - so I mounted the wire several feet below the ridge of the > roof. Not sure how this affects the antenna, but it can't be very good. > > I am contemplating using the ridge vent as part of the antenna: > I could position the ATU at one end of the attic, connect one > side to the ridge vent and the other side to a stealth wire that > I could run to a low tree or maybe the peak of the garage roof. > > Has anyone had any experience using ridge vents as antenna (or > part of an antenna)? Effect of rain wetting the roof shingles? Comments?? > > 73 > Ray K2HYD > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
RE: ridge vent as antenna?
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In reply to this post by Albers-2
Ray K2HYD wrote:
We just bought a second home, which is lovely (definition: my wife is thrilled with it!) but has restrictive covenants - no outside antennas. Grrr. I have mounted an ATU in the attic and attached a 1:1 balun directly to it, with about 25 ft of wire going out from each side - in other words, a non-resonant dipole - all inside the attic. It loads OK on all bands 80 thru 10 and I've made several decent contacts with it. What I don't like is that there is a lot of junk in the attic, like AC ductwork, tho most of it seems non-metallic. Mostly I don't like the aluminum ridge vent that runs the length of the attic - so I mounted the wire several feet below the ridge of the roof. Not sure how this affects the antenna, but it can't be very good. I am contemplating using the ridge vent as part of the antenna: I could position the ATU at one end of the attic, connect one side to the ridge vent and the other side to a stealth wire that I could run to a low tree or maybe the peak of the garage roof. Has anyone had any experience using ridge vents as antenna (or part of an antenna)? Effect of rain wetting the roof shingles? Comments?? ---------------------------------- If your radiator is only a few feet from the ridge vent, it is already part of the antenna. At that range you're inducing a lot of current into it as a "parasitic element". Shingles are good. I've had a number of attic doublets (center fed antennas of whatever length that would fit) that were very successful running QRP into them, even with attics full of AC ducts, etc. I saw no difference in performance, shingles wet or dry. (Now, some concrete tiles in one QTH were a completely different story...) But why bother to hook up to it? Why not simply use your wire to wherever you can reach as 1/2 of a doublet with the other half inside the attic. You can bend the attic half as needed to make up the length of the outdoor section just for a shot at symmetry. Of course it won't be really symmetrical, electrically, but it will be a doublet and it will load and it will likely do significantly better than an all-indoor antenna. Ron AC7AC _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Albers-2
Raymond Albers wrote:
> I have mounted an ATU in the attic and attached a 1:1 balun directly > to it, with about 25 ft of wire going out from each side - in other > words, a non-resonant dipole - all inside the attic. It loads OK on > all bands 80 thru 10 and I've made several decent contacts with it. This antenna will work better without the balun in this position. The impedance of the antenna varies all over the map and the balun will be ineffective on some bands, and lossy on others. It will probably be helpful on 30 meters! > I am contemplating using the ridge vent as part of the antenna: I > could position the ATU at one end of the attic, connect one side to > the ridge vent and the other side to a stealth wire that I could run > to a low tree or maybe the peak of the garage roof. As someone else pointed out, you will have to ensure continuity between the various pieces that make up the vent. On bands where voltage loops appear on the vent, wet weather will seriously detune it and increase losses. Ron's suggestion of making a doublet with part outside and part inside the attic seems to me the best choice. No. 22 or 24 enamelled wire is probably small enough to be invisible at a distance. Do not use a balun at the feedpoint, however. -- 73, Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-3
Or fold the ends back toward the feedpoint. Make yourself
a linear loaded dipole that way. Feed in center with 450 ohm twin lead. A starting point for length of wire, including the folded back part, around 66 feet (33 ft each side). de Joe, aa4nn ------------------------------------------------------------- If the roof is not long enough to hold a decent length > antenna, fold the ends and run them along the eves (again on standoff > insulators). > 73, > Don W3FPR > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Albers-2
Reread your CC&Rs. Maybe they do allow TV antennas. You probably have
neighboors who use Satellite for TV. Just say you have HDTV and run a UHF Yagi up a pole. Tell them it's for HD, but insulate the bottom. Instant top-hat vertical! YMMV, but how can they say no TV? That's un-American<g>. Dan / WG4S / K2 #2456 / New home, no Restrictions, but WAY down in a hole I've not figured how to get out of<sigh> <snip> but has restrictive covenants - no outside antennas. Grrr. </snip> _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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On Mar 22, 2006, at 8:41 AM, Dan Barker wrote: > Reread your CC&Rs. Maybe they do allow TV antennas. You probably have > neighboors who use Satellite for TV. Just say you have HDTV and run > a UHF > Yagi up a pole. Tell them it's for HD, but insulate the bottom. > Instant > top-hat vertical! > Like this: <http://force12inc.com/sigmasv5gt5info-002.htm>. Bob, N7XY _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
RE: ridge vent as antenna?
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In reply to this post by Joe-aa4nn
Considering "equivalent lengths", bending the sections of a doublet more
than 90 degrees significantly reduces the effect of the additional length of wire. Folding the wire back on itself a few inches from the original radiator has the effect of lengthening the radiator only slightly. RF flows over the wires following the broad outline of the area occupied by the wire rather than following the wire around sharp bends, so the folded-back wire tends to look simply like a "fat" wire, rather than a wire making a circuit. Such "linear loading" works, but the total length of the wire for a given effective length of antenna is much, much greater than would be necessary if the wires didn't fold back. Another approach to loading is to make the wire a huge coil with a very large length/diameter ratio (small diameter coil compared to the length of the radiator). Doug DeMaw (W1FB,sk) and others documented experiments with these in several ARRL publications some 30 or 40 years ago. I have done some tinkering with them too, and found that DeMaw's estimates were quite close: a continuously-loaded radiator required just about twice the total wire of a linear radiator. In my case, 260 feet of wire wound in a 3-inch diameter helix (coil) with a spacing between turns that yielded a 40 foot long radiator was self-resonant at 3.7 MHz. Of course, stretched out it would take only about 130 feet of wire to resonate at that frequency. Still, what's to argue with a 40-foot self-resonant 80 meter antenna? Many operators have used or at least heard of "slinky" antennas made from the child's helical spring toys stretched along a plastic insulating rope that made use of this property to form a shortened antenna. At least one company sold them commercially. Even so, there's one major consideration. The radiation resistance of such an antenna is very, very low. That is, the portion of the load resistance that actually converts RF to electromagnetic waves is miniscule compared to a full-sized antenna. A dipole, if fed at the center, will show about 50 ohms radiation resistance at typical heights above ground most Hams encounter (it's closer to 75 ohms in free space). A loaded dipole, no matter how it's done, may show a radiation resistance of only a couple of ohms at resonance. Actually, many short loaded antennas show only a small fraction of an ohm of radiation resistance at resonance. That's why such antennas are often a disappointment when used against ground or a simple counterpoise. The resistance of the ground is often hundreds of times greater than the radiation resistance of the radiator, so the efficiency of such an antenna may be much less than 1%: 5 watts in, < 50 mW radiated. Loaded antennas fare much better when center fed since there is no "ground" connection. However, the resistance of the wire becomes significant. Remember, the resistance of a conductor is much greater at RF than it is at DC or low-frequency AC due to the skin effect. If the radiation resistance is only a fraction of an ohm, the effective resistance of the wire may still consume more than half the power. Still, there's a huge advantage to be gained by using a balanced, center-fed loaded radiator arrangement over an end-fed loaded radiator arrangement. Linear loading (wires folded back and forth in a zig-zag) and continuously loading (wires in a helix for the length of the radiator) became more popular than simple loading coils because loading coils tended to have higher ohmic losses, being made of smaller diameter wire with correspondingly lower surface area. Remember, because of skin effect it's all about surface area: a paper-thin tube of copper an inch in diameter has the same low resistance to RF as a solid bar of copper an inch in diameter. So, in general, a larger diameter conductor bent around showed lower losses than many loading coils made out of small-diameter wires. And, under it all, years of experience by thousands of Hams tends to confirm the belief that a small-diameter radiator outside 'in the clear' beats just about anything that can be erected inside a building. That's why I was quick to endorse Ray's idea of a stealth wire outside. The quest for the perfect antenna has continued ever since Marconi figured out that if he hooked his spark gap to a metal plate suspended over his laboratory table the signal could be detected farther than ever before. That quest still goes on. Every antenna, no matter how big or small, high or low, cheap or expensive, is a huge bundle of compromises. The challenge to the Ham is figuring out which compromises yield the best results in any given situation, and we're doomed to doing it largely blind. SWR is no indication of how well an antenna will get out. It only indicates whether the feed system is working as designed. On-air checks are dubious, at best, in spite of great care and efforts. Antennas are reciprocal - they receive like they transmit in spite of what some claim - but it's as hard to evaluate received signals by ear as it is when doing on-air transmitting checks. When listening, changes in signal-to-noise ratio can mask actual changes in actual antenna losses (or gain), and gain is all we care about when transmitting. Changes in signal strength of 1 or 2 dB (a small fraction of one S-unit) are often very difficult to measure under typical band conditions. Sometimes it's impossible to evaluate the gain within a relatively huge range of 6 to 10 dB because of QSB. And in such cases we're evaluating a single path to a single distant station at a time. But, hey, if it wasn't so crazy and confusing, would it be half as much fun? Ron AC7AC _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Joe-aa4nn
A more effective antenna is to attach needed length to the ends of ridge
vent and run them at right angles to it down the gable. Paint to hide them or tuck under edge of non metallic shingles. Thus you create a Z antenna. Note many ridge vents today are plastic, so this might not work unless you RTV hookup wire atop the ridge vent. Stuart K5KVH _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Dan Barker
On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 11:41:47 -0500, Dan Barker wrote:
>Reread your CC&Rs. Maybe they do allow TV antennas. Federal law pre-empts CC&R provisions or HOA regulations that proscribe TV or satellite-dish antennas only when they are being used as described below. >You probably have >neighboors who use Satellite for TV. Just say you have HDTV and run a UHF >Yagi up a pole. Tell them it's for HD, but insulate the bottom. Instant >top-hat vertical! Lying to the HOA is a sure-fire way to get into lots of legal hot water!! The OTARD pre-emption is very specific -- it's for TV or video reception of broadcast-type signals only -- not even for reception of FM signals, and the prohibition of use for reception or transmission for other services was very clearly discissed in the Order that established the pre-emption. > >YMMV, but how can they say no TV? That's un-American<g>. But if you get in their face, and they really want to push the issue, they can hire some of my retired-spook colleagues to prove that it's being used for non-preempted purposes (like rf being transmitted from the mast or the antenna), and then what leg do you have to stand on without pre-emption protection? No reputable lawyer will defend you. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane ARRL Volunteer Counsel (I used to do this full-time) _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Albers-2
Ray,
I also live in a deed restricted community. I ran coax and DC power through the wall of my den. Once outside, I ran it underground to the back wall of the house. At the peak of the roof in the back, I mounted an SG-237 Smarttuner. I then took 300 feet of enameled wire and ran it around the perimeter of my roof. This created a 300 foot horizontal loop. It's around 2 WL long at 40 meters so the radiation pattern is not shooting straight up on 40 meters and above. It's a 1 story house so it's not very high up. The wire is pushed up under the shingles as much as possible. It's VERY hard to notice the antenna. I'm in Florida so a snowy roof is not going to happen. I'm not sure about rain since we are in the dry season here and I can't remember the last time in rained. I'll know better this spring/fall. How does it work? I've worked France, Bulgaria, Italy, Estonia, Ascension Island among others with my K2 just on PSK31 so far (I know, I need to work on my rusty CW skills). About 20 different countries in the last month (I've only had it in operation since 2/13/06). I had a ragchew with F6FZG last Saturday like he was next door. I'm more than pleased with its operation and the fact that it's practically invisible. The Smarttuner keeps the antenna in tune automatically. There are certainly much better antennas, but this one works great considering the restrictions. YMMV I'm sure. Kevin N8IQ/4 -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Raymond Albers Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 10:24 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: [Elecraft] ridge vent as antenna? Has anyone had any experience loading an aluminum ridge vent as an antenna?? We just bought a second home, which is lovely (definition: my wife is thrilled with it!) but has restrictive covenants - no outside antennas. Grrr. I have mounted an ATU in the attic and attached a 1:1 balun directly to it, with about 25 ft of wire going out from each side - in other words, a non-resonant dipole - all inside the attic. It loads OK on all bands 80 thru 10 and I've made several decent contacts with it. What I don't like is that there is a lot of junk in the attic, like AC ductwork, tho most of it seems non-metallic. Mostly I don't like the aluminum ridge vent that runs the length of the attic - so I mounted the wire several feet below the ridge of the roof. Not sure how this affects the antenna, but it can't be very good. I am contemplating using the ridge vent as part of the antenna: I could position the ATU at one end of the attic, connect one side to the ridge vent and the other side to a stealth wire that I could run to a low tree or maybe the peak of the garage roof. Has anyone had any experience using ridge vents as antenna (or part of an antenna)? Effect of rain wetting the roof shingles? Comments?? 73 Ray K2HYD _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Albers-2
Force 12 sells a version of its Sigma 5 multi-band verical dipole with a TV antenna on top. Also a reinforced version for patios that allows you to hang flower pots from it.
Standard disclaimers. Doug W6JD -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Stuart Rohre" <[hidden email]> > Indeed. Irrespective of PRB 1, FCC has separately ruled AGAINST homeowner > associations in that they cannot legislate to prevent you having an outdoor > TV antenna. A little thing called freedom of speech and press. Put up a > vertical with a dummy (or real) TV antenna atop it. Might broadband it on > the low bands, HI. > Stuart > K5KVH > > > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:53:26 +0000, [hidden email] wrote:
>> Indeed. Irrespective of PRB 1, FCC has separately ruled AGAINST homeowner >> associations in that they cannot legislate to prevent you having an outdoor >> TV antenna. A little thing called freedom of speech and press. Put up a >> vertical with a dummy (or real) TV antenna atop it. Might broadband it on >> the low bands, HI. And the fact that The Congress specifically gave the Commission authority to pre-empt CC&R provisions and HOA rules for OTARD (Off- The -Air Reception Devices). No such authority exists for ham antennas, and the Commission has stated in a recent denial of the ARRL's request to assume said authority that absent a clear direction from The Congress to do so, "hell no,. we won't go". The Congress doesn't seem in too much of a hurry to pass such a law. >Force 12 sells a version of its Sigma 5 multi-band verical dipole >with a TV antenna on top. Also a reinforced version for patios that >allows you to hang flower pots from it. The communications lawyer side of me says "stay clear of this if you want to claim pre-emption" while the 54-year-licensed ham side of me says "how 'bout that!!" -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane ARRL Volunteer Counsel _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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It seems to me that all of you are forgetting something very important! If
you have CC&Rs or covenants preventing you from putting up an antenna there isn't much you can do about it! YOU have signed on the dotted line saying that you will abide by these CC&Rs! That is what they (the home owners association) will take into court. I had to move as my real-estate agent lied to me, I assumed he was telling the truth as I saw a BIG satellite dish, and as things turned out the CR&Rs prevented even so much as a piece of wire if used for an antenna! When the home owners associations get wind of a law preempting retroactively any CC&Rs against antennas and the thought that there house value may decrease forget about any law from congress getting passed, why do you think it has taken this long? Do you think ARRL is paying off as well as the home owner association lobbyists? Rich KE0X -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.0/290 - Release Date: 3/23/2006 _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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On Mar 23, 2006, at 11:35 AM, Rich Lentz wrote: > It seems to me that all of you are forgetting something very > important! If > you have CC&Rs or covenants preventing you from putting up an > antenna there > isn't much you can do about it! YOU have signed on the dotted line > saying > that you will abide by these CC&Rs! That is what they (the home > owners > association) will take into court. I had to move as my real-estate > agent > lied to me, I assumed he was telling the truth as I saw a BIG > satellite > dish, and as things turned out the CR&Rs prevented even so much as > a piece > of wire if used for an antenna! When the home owners associations > get wind > of a law preempting retroactively any CC&Rs against antennas and > the thought > that there house value may decrease forget about any law from congress > getting passed, why do you think it has taken this long? Do you > think ARRL > is paying off as well as the home owner association lobbyists? > Now if Jack Abramoff was a ham.... _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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