start with straight key or paddles?
Locked
12
12
RE: start with straight key or paddles?
 
|
Jeff asked:
How was the speed determined for a sending test? ------------------- The FCC examiner sat there and listened to you send, and judged whether the sending was acceptable or not - both speed and accuracy. I'm sure that's why the sending test was dropped. There wasn't a decent way to quantify the test so it could be administered by VEC's. That was back before PC's and software were available cheaply to copy code. Ron AC7AC _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: start with straight key or paddles?
|
|
In reply to this post by Jeff Rosenberger
On May 10, 2005, at 11:23 AM, Jeff Rosenberger wrote:
> Mike wrote: >> When I took my Extra exam 25 years ago, they had already eliminated >> the >> Morse sending test. Too bad, I thought. When I took my commercial >> telegraph exam the same year, Morse sending tests were still required >> (one >> minute without error at 20 wpm plain language, and16 wpm code >> groups). I >> still remember having qualms about using a ratty old FCC office >> straight key >> for the 20 wpm test. That's always been about my limit for straight >> key >> operation. > > How was the speed determined for a sending test? I know I couldn't > sit down at a straight key and send at a specific numeric speed. I > can send at a comfortable speed for me to receive, or roughly match > speeds with the other operator, but send at exactly 16wpm, no way. Certainly it was a minimum for certification, not a target to be hit...no? _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
RE: start with straight key or paddles?
|
|
In reply to this post by Vic K2VCO
Vic wrote:
In my experience, the examiner just listened a little and then said 'OK'. I took it twice (13 and 20 wpm), and I don't know anyone who failed it. I don't know about commercial tests, but I was allowed to bring a (large, homebrew) keyer to my extra class test. The examiner just unplugged it when he'd heard enough (luckily I was too young to have a heart attack). -------------------- At the San Francisco FCC offices, one could use a bug if one applied in advance, and only for the First Class RadioTelegraph license test. One of the engineers who did the exams told me those were the sessions with the highest failure rates. Ops would be nervous and couldn't control the dits on a bug. One extra dit is a mistake, no matter where it happens! They did not allow keyers of any kind, only bugs by special pre-arrangement. The operator had to demonstrate his/her ability to make proper code, spaces and all. Ron AC7AC _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
|
|
In reply to this post by Ron D'Eau Claire-2
AC7AC wrote:
>The FCC examiner sat there and listened to you send, and >judged whether the sending was acceptable or not - both speed >and accuracy. Yep. FCC supplied a straight key, but you could bring your own bug or keyer *if* it could interface to the FCC's setup easily. >I'm sure that's why the sending test was dropped. IIRC, the stated reason was that very very few people passed receiving and failed sending. IMHO the real reason was that FCC had a limited number of qualified examiners. >There wasn't a decent way to quantify the test >so it could be administered by VEC's. I disagree! IIRC, the sending test ended in the late 1970s but the VE system didn't appear until the early 1980s. About a 5 year gap. Exams by mail existed before the VECs. Novice, Technician and Conditional exams could be given by a volunteer examiner (no caps) if certain conditions were met. Testing included code sending and receiving, and proctoring the writtens. So FCC figured that any ham qualified to be a volunteer examiner was qualified to judge at least 13 wpm code. 73 de Jim, N2EY _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
|
|
In reply to this post by Jeff Rosenberger
16 wpm or greater. It wasn't necessary to send at that precise speed. They
just cut some slack with code groups by reducing the requirement from 20 wpm. I never had an FCC examiner actually listen for the whole time. They would stick one earphone up to their ear, listen for 15 or 20 seconds and set the earphone back down. Always scared hell out of me. I thought they just gave up because I was so bad. Also, the FCC always allowed you to take in your own key. It wasn't necessary to use their aptly described "ratty old FCC office straight key." Eric KE6US -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jeff Rosenberger Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 8:23 AM To: Mike Morrow Cc: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles? Mike wrote: > When I took my Extra exam 25 years ago, they had already eliminated > the Morse sending test. Too bad, I thought. When I took my > commercial telegraph exam the same year, Morse sending tests were > still required (one minute without error at 20 wpm plain language, > and16 wpm code groups). I still remember having qualms about using a > ratty old FCC office straight key for the 20 wpm test. That's always > been about my limit for straight key operation. How was the speed determined for a sending test? I know I couldn't sit down at a straight key and send at a specific numeric speed. I can send at a comfortable speed for me to receive, or roughly match speeds with the other operator, but send at exactly 16wpm, no way. _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: start with straight key or paddles?
|
|
In reply to this post by Vic K2VCO
On Tue, 2005-05-10 at 08:47 -0700, Vic Rosenthal wrote:
> Jeff Rosenberger wrote: > > > How was the speed determined for a sending test? I know I couldn't sit > > down at a straight key and send at a specific numeric speed. I can send > > at a comfortable speed for me to receive, or roughly match speeds with > > the other operator, but send at exactly 16wpm, no way. > > In my experience, the examiner just listened a little and then said 'OK'. I > took it twice (13 and 20 wpm), and I don't know anyone who failed it. I don't > know about commercial tests, but I was allowed to bring a (large, homebrew) > keyer to my extra class test. The examiner just unplugged it when he'd heard > enough (luckily I was too young to have a heart attack). > examiner just listened for 30 seconds or so and said that was fine. There was one applicant who failed the sending test at that session. I think he was just too nervous. Bob, N7XY _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
|
|
In reply to this post by Ron D'Eau Claire-2
It must have been discretionary. There was nothing in the regs about what
equipment you had to use. I took exams at Boston and Long Beach and took a bug to both of them. Jammed the wedge right into their "ratty old FCC office" key. Eric KE6US -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 9:07 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: RE: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles? Vic wrote: In my experience, the examiner just listened a little and then said 'OK'. I took it twice (13 and 20 wpm), and I don't know anyone who failed it. I don't know about commercial tests, but I was allowed to bring a (large, homebrew) keyer to my extra class test. The examiner just unplugged it when he'd heard enough (luckily I was too young to have a heart attack). -------------------- At the San Francisco FCC offices, one could use a bug if one applied in advance, and only for the First Class RadioTelegraph license test. One of the engineers who did the exams told me those were the sessions with the highest failure rates. Ops would be nervous and couldn't control the dits on a bug. One extra dit is a mistake, no matter where it happens! They did not allow keyers of any kind, only bugs by special pre-arrangement. The operator had to demonstrate his/her ability to make proper code, spaces and all. Ron AC7AC _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
|
|
In reply to this post by EricJ-2
EricJ wrote:
> Also, the FCC always allowed you to take in your own key. It wasn't > necessary to use their aptly described "ratty old FCC office straight key." Which, in New York anyway, was set to a gap of about 1/2" (1.27 cm) and was either welded or adjusted with a pipe wrench to stay that way! -- 73, Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
|
|
In reply to this post by EricJ-2
I'm sure it was discretionary. I took the Novice in late '53, and the
General in mid '54, at the FCC Office in Los Angeles. Obviously, a bug was inappropriate for the Novice, and while I took my bug for the General, I still had to use the "FCC Key," although I don't remember it being "ratty." Both times, I probably sent for no more than 10 - 15 seconds and was told "You pass." When I went for the Extra in '56, I had just started driving, went alone, and was so involved getting my route planned out so as not to get lost in downtown LA that I arrived several hours early. I had my Lionel J-36 bug, but had practiced 20WPM on a straight key just in case. The examiner was about to give the 2nd telegraph, and told me that if I filled out the app and passed the 25WPM test. Thoroughly intimidated (I was exactly 16 in what seemed like a very adult place), I didn't even ask about using my bug. As I sat down at the straight key, he said, "Oh come on, kid! Who do you think you are!? No one can send acceptable code at 25 WPM on a straight key. Plug in the bug and get on with this." Again, I doubt that I sent for more than 10 seconds. With regard to the question that originally started this thread, when I've been asked by a new ham wanting to upgrade, I always tell them, "Learn on whatever you are comfortable with." I've never understood the alleged 'purity' that supposedly comes from learning on a straight key first. Just one opinion, YMMV, Fred K6DGW Auburn CA CM98lw EricJ wrote: > > It must have been discretionary. There was nothing in the regs about what > equipment you had to use. I took exams at Boston and Long Beach and took a > bug to both of them. Jammed the wedge right into their "ratty old FCC > office" key. > > Eric > KE6US > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
|
|
In reply to this post by EricJ-2
I am left handed and I can use a straight key only with my left hand. I
learned to use a bug and keyer right handed because I cannot write legibly right handed (OK, I can't write legibly with either hand, but relatively speaking, left is less illegible than right!). Oddly, I always use the Bencher with my K2 right handed, however I find that I'm nearly equally comfortable with either hand on the KX1. Years ago, a good friend and long-term ham (right handed) told me that the proportion of hams who are left handed exceeds the overall population average (~10%) by a "significant" amount. He offered a few lame reasons for this. Given that 43.3 percent of all people make up their own statistics, I've continued to wonder about this ... not all the time, just every now and then. SMALL EXPERIMENT: If you'd like to, send me an email (OFF REFLECTOR for Pete's sake!!!!) with the following information: Basic Handedness (right, left, either) Writing Handedness Straight Key Handedness (right, left, either, never used) Bug Handedness Iambic Keyer Handedness PTT Switch Handedness (for phone-only ops) Age Years Licensed Comments (but I'll probably ignore them for the survey) Cut-off date for inclusion in the results is 2359Z 5/16/2005. And, if you google "left handedness", you'll find a geocities entry on the first page of results that offers this sobering (if possibly extreme) analysis: "What does left-handedness mean, practically speaking? Medical literature reports that lefties more accident prone, are more likely to have their fingers amputated by power-tools, suffer more wrist fractures. Lefties are more susceptible to allergies, auto-immune diseases, bed-wetting, depression, drug abuse, epilepsy, hypnotism, low birth weight, schizophrenia, sleeping disorders, suicide attempts, and certain learning disabilities. Lefties are six times likelier to die in an accident, and four times to likelier to die while driving." Bed wetting? How have any of us actually survived to retirement? 73, Fred K6DGW Auburn CA CM98lw EricJ wrote: > > I did the same thing, only I'm left handed, but the same idea. Because of > the finer dexterity needed for a straight key, I am forced to use my left > hand for that. I can send better with my right foot than my right hand. But > with a paddle I'm nearly ambidexterous. I switched to my right hand with a > paddle so that I could have my left hand free for writing notes, logging, > etc. But I found I can now use a paddle with either my left or right hand > with equal ease. All I have to do is reverse the paddle functions in the > keyer (dits always on the thumb). > > Eric > KE6US _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
|
|
In the mid-80's I was in a graduate seminar in economics at CSUF. There
were 9 of us including the professor sitting around a circular table. I was writing something and looked up. The hair on the back of my neck stood up. Everyone, including the professor, was left-handed. I didn't get a chance to see which ones were bed wetters, suicidal or accident prone, but none of us had learning disabilities. Eric KE6US -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Fred Jensen Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 11:46 AM To: Elecraft Reflector Subject: [Elecraft] Left vs right handed keying Years ago, a good friend and long-term ham (right handed) told me that the proportion of hams who are left handed exceeds the overall population average (~10%) by a "significant" amount. He offered a few lame reasons for this. Given that 43.3 percent of all people make up their own statistics, I've continued to wonder about this ... not all the time, just every now and then. --- "What does left-handedness mean, practically speaking? Medical literature reports that lefties more accident prone, are more likely to have their fingers amputated by power-tools, suffer more wrist fractures. Lefties are more susceptible to allergies, auto-immune diseases, bed-wetting, depression, drug abuse, epilepsy, hypnotism, low birth weight, schizophrenia, sleeping disorders, suicide attempts, and certain learning disabilities. Lefties are six times likelier to die in an accident, and four times to likelier to die while driving." Bed wetting? How have any of us actually survived to retirement? 73, Fred K6DGW Auburn CA CM98lw _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: start with straight key or paddles?
|
|
In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3
On May 10, 2005, at 10:41 AM, Mike Morrow wrote: > Thank goodness for iambic mode A. I never understood how mode B, > the result > of a logic design error in an early (1960s) electronic keyer > design, caught > on. It's not an error, it is there on purpose! I built a Mini-MOS key (from a 73 magazine article) back in 1979. It has dot and dash memories -- the quality that gives it Mode B. It takes extra circuitry to do this -- it's not just a "logic design error". > Its timing is trickier than mode A, but it still requires exactly the > same number of hand motions to send a particular character. I don't find Mode B timing impossible - in fact, it is more relaxed than mode A -- you let go of the paddles a lot sooner. I think the bottom line is that you prefer whatever technique you've trained on. I have trouble with Bencher paddles. I usually knock my ancient paddles so hard the base moves slightly. First time I ever tried to use a Bencher, the paddles came off and the spring went flying across the room! Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL Mail: [hidden email] Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!" -- Wilbur Wright, 1901 _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: start with straight key or paddles?
|
|
In reply to this post by jferg977
I wrote:
> Thank goodness for iambic mode A. I never understood how mode B, > the result of a logic design error in an early (1960s) electronic keyer > design, caught on. Bill wrote: >I built a Mini-MOS key (from a 73 magazine article) back in 1979. It >has dot and dash memories -- the quality that gives it Mode B. It >takes extra circuitry to do this -- it's not just a "logic design >error". And Dan wrote: >I had a Heathkit keyer on which I learned iambic, and it was all >discrete logic gates and RC circuits. No ICs. It did exactly what >the schematic said it would do. No error there. True, mode B did catch on (long before 1979) and circuits and chips were purposely designed to implement it. But the evil that spawned mode B occurred in an improperly designed keyer from the mid-1960s. Somewhere I've specific details...but not with me now. >I don't find Mode B timing impossible - in fact, it is more relaxed >than mode A -- you let go of the paddles a lot sooner. Which is the **only** "advantage" that can be claimed for mode B, though I see no value to this "advantage" and a "lot" sooner is not how I would quantify it. If mode B reduced the number of paddle manipulations required over mode A, it would have purpose. But exactly the same amount of paddle manipulation is required regardless of character sent. >I think the bottom line is that you prefer whatever technique >you've trained on. There's 100 percent agreement here! Learn one mode and the other will seem impossible. I haven't any moral objections to mode B, just to the firmware designers who design an embedded keyer in a rig to use only one mode and that mode is mode B! (Example...the nasty FT-817!!) For whatever reasons some such firmware designers seem more often to choose mode B, so I actually recommend that mode B be the mode learned if one is just learning iambic keying. Thank goodness the Elecraft keyers allow either mode! 73, Mike / KK5F _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: start with straight key or paddles?
|
|
On Fri, 20 May 2005, Mike Morrow wrote:
>> I think the bottom line is that you prefer whatever technique >> you've trained on. > > There's 100 percent agreement here! Learn one mode and the other will seem impossible. > > I haven't any moral objections to mode B, just to the firmware designers who design an embedded keyer in a rig to use only one mode and that mode is mode B! (Example...the nasty FT-817!!) For whatever reasons some such firmware designers seem more often to choose mode B, so I actually recommend that mode B be the mode learned if one is just learning iambic keying. I think it can all be traced to Entwistle the Lab Technician. Entwistle was a Sooner, bouncing from facility to facility. Along with other bad habits, such as womanizing, chewing tobacco, drinking and passing gas in public, he used mode B. Rather than be confronted with his unseemly life style, the designers would not only assign prototype building, but also product testing to Entwistle. Since he didn't know mode B, he could neither build or test it, and simply told the designers that their design was faulty, and suggested an alternative that he felt confident would pass alll tests(Mode B). Rumor has it that he was related to Daedalus & Icarus. While IBM will not confirm his employment in Persoanl Computer development efforts, the fact that the early PC could not process simple addition problems may be an Entwistle signature. 73,Thom-k3hrn www.zerobeat.net Home of QRP Web Ring, Drakelist home page, Free Classified Ads for amateur radio, QRP IRC channel Elecraft Owners Database www.tlchost.net/ Web Hosting as low as 3.49/month _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
|
|
In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3
And Straight Key for those of us who have never been impressed with either! -----Original Message----- From: elecraft-bounces+eric_csuf=[hidden email] [mailto:elecraft-bounces+eric_csuf=[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mike Morrow Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 12:01 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] start with straight key or paddles? Thank goodness the Elecraft keyers allow either mode! 73, Mike / KK5F _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: start with straight key or paddles?
|
|
In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3
On Fri, 20 May 2005, Mike Morrow wrote:
> I wrote: > >> Thank goodness for iambic mode A. I never understood how mode B, >> the result of a logic design error in an early (1960s) electronic keyer >> design, caught on. > > Bill wrote: > >> I built a Mini-MOS key (from a 73 magazine article) back in 1979. It >> has dot and dash memories -- the quality that gives it Mode B. It >> takes extra circuitry to do this -- it's not just a "logic design >> error". > > And Dan wrote: > >> I had a Heathkit keyer on which I learned iambic, and it was all >> discrete logic gates and RC circuits. No ICs. It did exactly what >> the schematic said it would do. No error there. > > True, mode B did catch on (long before 1979) and circuits and chips were purposely designed to implement it. But the evil that spawned mode B occurred in an improperly designed keyer from the mid-1960s. Somewhere I've specific details...but not with me now. Not quite an answer but the ARRL article on John Curtis said, "(according to John, Mode B was actually a design error by an unnamed company)." http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2002/02/04/2/?nc=1 -- Hisashi T Fujinaka - [hidden email] BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
RE: start with straight key or paddles?
|
|
Hisashi Fujinaka wrote:
Not quite an answer but the ARRL article on John Curtis said, "(according to John, Mode B was actually a design error by an unnamed company)." http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2002/02/04/2/?nc=1 ---------------------- Thank you Fujinaka-san! I enjoyed reading the article. I noticed one error for those tracking the famous (or infamous) mode B. The article said, "In 1981 Curtis found that many people liked the mode B keying characteristics of Ten-Tec, Heath, Nye, and Accu-keyers." I don't know about the others, but the Accu-Keyer was a mode "A" keyer, not a mode "B". I used a homebrew Accu-Keyer built straight from the QST article for 20 years. Since I reverted to a bug it's now sitting on the shelf, but still works as well as the day it built in the mid-1970's. Ron AC7AC _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
«
Return to Elecraft
|
1 view|%1 views
| Free forum by Nabble | Edit this page |