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wire for random wire antenna using kx3

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ke9uw

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

Interesting, I had an analog computer course exercise at the U of I Urbana when we had two verticals separated and phased to define the coverage pattern. I don’t remember the length of them. It’d be interesting to recall what it was.

Chuck
KE9UW

Sent from my iPhone, cjack

> On Dec 18, 2018, at 1:55 PM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Indeed. AM broadcast vertical antennas are rarely 90 or 180 degrees, especially if they are a Class A station. I think both KFI and KNX in Los Angeles have 195 deg verticals. The design goal is to maximize field strength in the service area, accomplished by adjusting the height of the current maxima in the antenna element. All resonance means is that the reactive component of the impedance at the feed point is zero. A bigger problem for stations at the low end of the band ... KFI is at 640 KHz ... is that the usable bandwidth of the antenna can be less than the bandwidth of the DSB signal. [:-) Last time I saw KFI's tower from Interstate 5, it appeared to have a fairly large capacity hat.
>
> Elecraft ATU's [even the KX1 which is necessarily small with a limited number of L-C selections] seem to handle reactive loads just fine suggesting [to me at least] that designing an antenna for azimuth and/or elevation pattern may be more beneficial than achieving resonance in the desired part of the band.
>
> 73,
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County
>
>> On 12/17/2018 7:45 PM, W2xj wrote:
>> Coming from the broadcast side, especially AM broadcasting, I never considered resonance particularly important. Really it’s just the transmitter that cares. We always put matching at the antenna but in ham radio we usually have tuners at or in the TX.
>>
>
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Chuck, KE9UW

Jim Brown-10

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by k6dgw

On 12/18/2018 11:54 AM, Fred Jensen wrote:
> Indeed. AM broadcast vertical antennas are rarely 90 or 180 degrees,
> especially if they are a Class A station. I think both KFI and KNX in
> Los Angeles have 195 deg verticals. The design goal is to maximize
> field strength in the service area, accomplished by adjusting the
> height of the current maxima in the antenna element.

Exactly right. Although I've never done the design work for them, I
suspect that bandwidth can be increased by careful design of the
matching networks.

Technical details of US broadcast antenna systems can be queried from
this link.

https://www.fcc.gov/media/radio/am-query

> All resonance means is that the reactive component of the impedance at
> the feed point is zero. A bigger problem for stations at the low end
> of the band ... KFI is at 640 KHz ... is that the usable bandwidth of
> the antenna can be less than the bandwidth of the DSB signal.

And it's an even bigger problem for stations using directional arrays!
Those arrays are required by the terms of their license to protect other
stations on the same or adjacent channels from interference. As a
college student, I worked for one of those stations, and later for a
consultant (Pete Johnson) who designed those arrays. Pete and Carl Smith
wrote the technical sections of FCC Regs for AM BC after WWII.

73, Jim K9YC

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k6dgw

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by ke9uw

My mini-dissertation strictly applies to Class A [so-called "Clear
Channel"] stations only, who almost universally use single,
omni-directional verticals since they are not required to protect any
other stations at night. There were a few Class A's on the coasts that
did use directional phased arrays since there weren't many/any listeners
out at sea but I don't know if any of them are left. Non-Class A's
generally employ 2 or sometimes 3 phased verticals to achieve
directional patterns at night to protect co-channel stations, putting
null(s) in the direction of their service areas.

Class A's, such as KFI, seek to maximize the coverage in their service
area [i.e. maximize the area covered with an adequate field strength].
Neither a 90-degree vertical ... current max at the bottom ... nor a
180-degree ... current max half way up the tower ... will do that. At
640 KHz, a half-wave is ~730 ft.

The obsession with VSWR in ham radio is a bit surprising. I can't
really remember when the term became common, or when I first saw a VSWR
bridge, but I do know that I never saw one in SE Asia in the mid-60's.
These days, high VSWR seems to equate to "antenna that doesn't work."

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 12/18/2018 12:38 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:
> Interesting, I had an analog computer course exercise at the U of I Urbana when we had two verticals separated and phased to define the coverage pattern. I don’t remember the length of them. It’d be interesting to recall what it was.
>
> Chuck
> KE9UW
>
>

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W2xj

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Actually most are open wire feeders and have no networks.

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 18, 2018, at 11:27 AM, Bob McGraw K4TAX <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> But usually they have only 2 or 3 switched frequencies. They also switch directions, sometimes on different frequencies. All of these conditions are known and networks are pre set for the required combination.
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Dec 18, 2018, at 12:35 PM, W2xj <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I was referring to ham tuners but shortwave broadcast stations QSY with hundreds of kilowatts many times a day.
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On Dec 18, 2018, at 10:00 AM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> How often does the match change at a well-engineered broadcast station?
>>>
>>>> On 12/18/2018 9:47 AM, W2xj wrote:
>>>> That’s why we have adjustable antenna tuners. Same concept.
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> On Dec 18, 2018, at 09:27, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Broadcast stations rarely QSY.
>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>
>
>

Don Wilhelm

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by k6dgw

Right, SWR (or VSWR = same thing) has nothing to do with the antenna
itself - it is all related to the feedline.

It does have a lot to do with the ability to match the feedline to the
transceiver which normally likes a 50 ohm load or something close - but
then an ATU can take care of that situation easily.

Often a feedline is used as a matching section, and the reason it works
is that SWR makes it work. See the antenna and feedline article on my
website www.w3fpr.com.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/18/2018 5:43 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>
> The obsession with VSWR in ham radio is a bit surprising. I can't
> really remember when the term became common, or when I first saw a VSWR
> bridge, but I do know that I never saw one in SE Asia in the mid-60's.
> These days, high VSWR seems to equate to "antenna that doesn't work."
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Wes Stewart-2

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by k6dgw

T. A. Gadwa, “Standing Waves on Transmission Lines”, QST, December 1942, pp. 17-21.

Wes N7WS

On 12/18/2018 3:43 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

> [snip]
>
> The obsession with VSWR in ham radio is a bit surprising. I can't really
> remember when the term became common, or when I first saw a VSWR bridge, but I
> do know that I never saw one in SE Asia in the mid-60's. These days, high
> VSWR seems to equate to "antenna that doesn't work."
>
> 73,
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County

W2xj

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by k6dgw

A few comments. 180 degree radiators are almost always avoided as at high power the base can literally be explosive. Theoretically 225 degrees would yield the most radiation towards the horizon but presents two problems. The first (for class A stations) is the secondary lobe that causes self interference skywave. The second issue is self loading where the radiator is longer electrically than it is physically. In such instance a 225 degree radiator is actually electrically longer causing the main lobe to lift off the ground and break into additional sidelobes. For that reason, class A stations opted for a compromise height of about 195 to 200 degrees. This lowers the base impedance over 180 degrees while limiting secondary skywave lobes to an acceptable level and staying in a safe area as far as self loading is concerned. Some class C (former class IV) stations use 225 degree radiators, though.

Bandwidth is partially a function of the size of the tower face and also the design of the matching network. The problem becomes challenging when radiators get down around 60 degrees.

There are two directional class A stations I can think of - WBZ Boston and WWL New Orleans. Both are very much alive and well and still quite successful.

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 18, 2018, at 2:43 PM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My mini-dissertation strictly applies to Class A [so-called "Clear Channel"] stations only, who almost universally use single, omni-directional verticals since they are not required to protect any other stations at night. There were a few Class A's on the coasts that did use directional phased arrays since there weren't many/any listeners out at sea but I don't know if any of them are left. Non-Class A's generally employ 2 or sometimes 3 phased verticals to achieve directional patterns at night to protect co-channel stations, putting null(s) in the direction of their service areas.
>
> Class A's, such as KFI, seek to maximize the coverage in their service area [i.e. maximize the area covered with an adequate field strength]. Neither a 90-degree vertical ... current max at the bottom ... nor a 180-degree ... current max half way up the tower ... will do that. At 640 KHz, a half-wave is ~730 ft.
>
> The obsession with VSWR in ham radio is a bit surprising. I can't really remember when the term became common, or when I first saw a VSWR bridge, but I do know that I never saw one in SE Asia in the mid-60's. These days, high VSWR seems to equate to "antenna that doesn't work."
>
> 73,
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County
>
>> On 12/18/2018 12:38 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:
>> Interesting, I had an analog computer course exercise at the U of I Urbana when we had two verticals separated and phased to define the coverage pattern. I don’t remember the length of them. It’d be interesting to recall what it was.
>>
>> Chuck
>> KE9UW
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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k6dgw

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by Wes Stewart-2

Yep, the term was known when I became KN6DGW in 1953, but somehow no one
cared. Standing waves were sort of benign, you ran your transmission
line [often 300 ohm open-wire, or TV twinlead] to the 2 or 3 turn link
and adjusted it inwards until your TX was "loaded" to rated input
power. Standing waves formed the basis of "Lecher Lines" used to
measure frequency [well ... wavelength] generally for VHF and above.
Standing waves just didn't create the heartburn that they seem to
today. Granted, today's TX are comfortable with 50 ohms and not much
else but that's just impedance matching networks.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 12/18/2018 3:32 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
> T. A. Gadwa, “Standing Waves on Transmission Lines”, QST, December
> 1942, pp. 17-21.
>
> Wes N7WS
>

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Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT-3

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

This is probably the big reason.

When I got my ticket, things were pretty much coax, but I vaguely
remember something about open wire (ladder line) being less lossy when
things were mismatched.

73 -- Lynn

On 12/18/2018 5:00 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
> Granted, today's TX are comfortable with 50 ohms and not much else but
> that's just impedance matching networks.
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Don Wilhelm

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by k6dgw

Skip,

That is "telling it like it was".

If you want to go back to those "good old days", build yourself a link
coupled tuner. It will likely use plug-in coils and perhaps a swinging
link.

Then you can tune it just like you did on your old transmitter/amplifier
- except you do not have to "dip the plate" and change the link coupling
to bring the plate current up to where you want. You adjust that tuner
so you have a low SWR at the input. If you can't get a low SWR, adjust
the transmission line taps on the coil and try again until you get it
right. Each antenna requires different coil taps and different tuning.

Tune up and band to band QSYs were not quick and easy in those days.
Those who wanted instant band hopping had multiple amplifiers each with
their dedicated antennas (rich hams) - now we can have that same
capability with a single multiband antenna and an ATU.

While I do have a couple of those tuners (with their wide spaced "bread
slicer" capacitors) in my collections, I prefer to use the newer ATUs -
push a button and it finds a match.

The old methods are not better or worse, but just different. Newer
stuff does it easier - but it is interesting to know what is happening
in the stuff that does the impedance transformation. Engineers know the
concepts, and older hams know what is involved even if they do not
understand the theory. It seems that many newer hams do not care - push
the button on the microphone and make a contact is the limit of their
interest.
Perhaps we need to launch a renewed effort in bringing newer hams into
the fold of understanding what is going on other than pushing the PTT
button on the microphone. I hate to see the ranks of ham radio descend
into the same category as CB operators, but I think we are headed that
way as far as understanding what is involved in RF transmission and
reception.

If you want a computer parallel (for those digitally inclined) it is the
difference between someone who only wants to do email and web surfing
and those who understand (or attempt to learn) networking and how all
that fits into the World Wide Web and Internet of Things.

We do not have to fully understand propagation, circuits, antenna theory
and such to push that PTT button and talk, but if that is all you do, it
is more akin to CB than it is to amateur radio.

OK, I will crawl off my soapbox for the time being.

73.
Don W3FPR

On 12/18/2018 8:00 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

> Yep, the term was known when I became KN6DGW in 1953, but somehow no one
> cared. Standing waves were sort of benign, you ran your transmission
> line [often 300 ohm open-wire, or TV twinlead] to the 2 or 3 turn link
> and adjusted it inwards until your TX was "loaded" to rated input
> power. Standing waves formed the basis of "Lecher Lines" used to
> measure frequency [well ... wavelength] generally for VHF and above.
> Standing waves just didn't create the heartburn that they seem to
> today. Granted, today's TX are comfortable with 50 ohms and not much
> else but that's just impedance matching networks.
>

W2xj

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by k6dgw

To be fair, solid state PAs are far less forgiving about match than were tubes. This is completely due to broadband design. This can be solved by including an ATU as is done with a number of Elecraft products either as an option or a feature. In the end it is about what it takes to keep the PA happy.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 18, 2018, at 17:00, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yep, the term was known when I became KN6DGW in 1953, but somehow no one cared. Standing waves were sort of benign, you ran your transmission line [often 300 ohm open-wire, or TV twinlead] to the 2 or 3 turn link and adjusted it inwards until your TX was "loaded" to rated input power. Standing waves formed the basis of "Lecher Lines" used to measure frequency [well ... wavelength] generally for VHF and above. Standing waves just didn't create the heartburn that they seem to today. Granted, today's TX are comfortable with 50 ohms and not much else but that's just impedance matching networks.
>
> 73,
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County
>
>> On 12/18/2018 3:32 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
>> T. A. Gadwa, “Standing Waves on Transmission Lines”, QST, December 1942, pp. 17-21.
>>
>> Wes N7WS
>
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Phil Kane-2

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by k6dgw

On 12/17/2018 11:03 AM, Fred Jensen wrote:

> Larson E. Rapp is using an alias now?

Haven't seen that author attribution for decades. Shows my age. :)

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Phil Kane-2

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by W2xj

On 12/17/2018 2:43 PM, W2xj wrote:

> Remember this IS a hobby and to each their own. As an engineer, I do
> model and design what I use. I hate the “by guess and by golly”
> approach. Everything I do is carefully planned in advance and is a
> part of my enjoyment of the hobby but YMMV.

I too am an engineer, senior manager of a consulting engineering firm,
but I separate my hobbies from my work. Keeps me sane.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Phil Kane-2

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by W2xj

On 12/17/2018 7:45 PM, W2xj wrote:

> Coming from the broadcast side, especially AM broadcasting, I never
> considered resonance particularly important. Really it’s just the
> transmitter that cares. We always put matching at the antenna but in
> ham radio we usually have tuners at or in the TX.

Ah, but the phaser (matching networks) for AM broadcast directional
arrays usually is located at or near the transmitter - or at least they
were when I dealt with AMers in the 1960s-1990s.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Phil Kane-2

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by W2xj

On 12/18/2018 10:35 AM, W2xj wrote:

> I was referring to ham tuners but shortwave broadcast stations QSY
> with hundreds of kilowatts many times a day.

And a former friend who was one of th station operators at KGEI (SW
station now defunct) had the record time for changing bands on the 100
KW TX. Even though the 100 was off the air, the 250 KW was still on the
air on yet another band so rubber mats, grounding sticks, and gloves
were the order of the day.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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W2xj

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by Phil Kane-2

but phasors are not matching networks. theoretically they are 50 ohms in and 50 ohms out although in reality that is not quite the case. in any rate the high power sites i have built has the phasor at the highest power tower. at some sites i put the phasor in its own building at the center of the array.

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 19, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Phil Kane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 12/17/2018 7:45 PM, W2xj wrote:
>>
>> Coming from the broadcast side, especially AM broadcasting, I never
>> considered resonance particularly important. Really it’s just the
>> transmitter that cares. We always put matching at the antenna but in
>> ham radio we usually have tuners at or in the TX.
>
> Ah, but the phaser (matching networks) for AM broadcast directional
> arrays usually is located at or near the transmitter - or at least they
> were when I dealt with AMers in the 1960s-1990s.
>
> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
> Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402
>
> From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
> Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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W2xj

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by Phil Kane-2

must have been an old tx. The ones dating back around 60 years had front panel cranks and newer models did changes automatically.

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 19, 2018, at 2:40 PM, Phil Kane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 12/18/2018 10:35 AM, W2xj wrote:
>>
>> I was referring to ham tuners but shortwave broadcast stations QSY
>> with hundreds of kilowatts many times a day.
>
> And a former friend who was one of th station operators at KGEI (SW
> station now defunct) had the record time for changing bands on the 100
> KW TX. Even though the 100 was off the air, the 250 KW was still on the
> air on yet another band so rubber mats, grounding sticks, and gloves
> were the order of the day.
>
> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
> Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402
>
> From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
> Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>

Phil Kane-2

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

On 12/19/2018 3:25 PM, W2xj wrote:

> must have been an old tx. The ones dating back around 60 years had
> front panel cranks and newer models did changes automatically.

He actually had to go into the cage and change taps on coils. I don't
remember the age/model of the TX but it was in service in the early
1980s as I remember it.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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W2xj

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

Shortwave transmitters tend to live very long lives.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 19, 2018, at 19:13, Phil Kane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 12/19/2018 3:25 PM, W2xj wrote:
>>
>> must have been an old tx. The ones dating back around 60 years had
>> front panel cranks and newer models did changes automatically.
>
> He actually had to go into the cage and change taps on coils. I don't
> remember the age/model of the TX but it was in service in the early
> 1980s as I remember it.
>
> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
> Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402
>
> From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
> Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
>

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