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wire for random wire antenna using kx3

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W2xj

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

Remember this IS a hobby and to each their own. As an engineer, I do model and design what I use. I hate the “by guess and by golly” approach. Everything I do is carefully planned in advance and is a part of my enjoyment of the hobby but YMMV.

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 17, 2018, at 1:22 PM, DC <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Good one!
>
>
> Many hams now-days miss the most important point of all, I have never made a contact by computer modeling, and worrying about wire type and size. Back in the day, you put something up and experimented from there -- making contacts along the way. Now, folks look at the internet and then second guess everything they read to the point of information overload and analyses paralyses.
>
> Too Bad,
>
> Richard
>
> K6VV
>
>
>> On 12/17/2018 7:09 AM, Charlie T wrote:
>> Yes, but speaker wire is only good for audio up to about 25 kHz. It has a
>> frequency limiting component in the wire alloy that must be removed in order
>> to use this type wire at RF.
>>
>> This removal procedure is fairly easy to accomplish. First, soak the wire
>> in a bucket of laundry detergent and water over night, then remove the wire
>> and rinse it thoroughly.
>> After assuring the wire is dry, place in an oven set to about 150 degrees
>> for about 3 - 4 hours.
>> In lieu of the oven, you can also place the wire in an afternoon of summer
>> sun.
>> After that, place the wire on the ground and hold a 2 meter hand-held over
>> the wire, approximately a foot away and key up the radio for 20 seconds at a
>> couple watts output.
>> If you see no reaction, sparking, especially tingling in your ears, or
>> physical movement of the wire, it is now safe to use as an antenna.
>>
>> Note this advice is given freely and may be disseminated with no intended
>> royalty charges or copyright infringements.
>>
>> 73, Charlie k3ICH
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On
>> Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 9:46 AM
>> To: Richard watson <[hidden email]>; elecraft
>> <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3
>>
>> Rick,
>>
>> Certainly it will work, and makes for a quick temporary antenna,
>> particularly indoors.
>> However, if you are using the speaker wire as a transmission line, it has
>> relatively high loss characteristics, and I would recommend that you think
>> about replacing the transmission line part with real parallel transmission
>> line for a more permanent installation.
>>
>> For the radiator section, the speaker wire can remain.
>>
>> 73,
>> Do

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riese-k3djc

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by rwwatson

wow I am so embarised

Bob K3DJC
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 17:25:10 -0500 Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
writes:

> Does this mean that the electrons just will not stop?
> I brake my car when I need to stop it.
> I fix it when it it breaks.
>
> If I pull on the wire enough, it certainly will break.
>
> Proper spelling equals meaningful words - the English language is
> complicated, but I thought we learned many of the spelling
> differences
> in grade 6 - here vs. hear, there vs. their, etc. even though they
> sound
> the same.
> It seems that texting and "OMG", "LOL" and such have devalued our
> use of
> good language and spelling skills.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 12/17/2018 4:24 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> > if you can find telephone house service wire,,, is copper clad
> and
> > impossible to brake
>

David Gilbert

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by DC-3

I've been modeling antennas using EZNEC since back when it was ELNEC,
and I've learned more about how antennas work using it than by any other
means. It is fascinating to set up some wires in the model, plant a
source somewhere, and then look at the radiation pattern and current
distributions.

Having been very active in Field Day over several decades and trying out
different antennas (often more than one) each year, I would be willing
to bet $100 that I have physically built more functioning antennas than
you have. Analyses paralyses my ass.

The point is that analysis and practice are not mutually exclusive, and
anything that helps us actually understand what we do instead of blind
trail and error is worth the time and effort it takes. Learning by any
means is not "bad" ... it is very, very good.

Dave AB7E

On 12/17/2018 2:22 PM, DC wrote:

> Good one!
>
>
> Many hams now-days miss the most important point of all, I have never
> made a contact by computer modeling, and worrying about wire type and
> size. Back in the day, you put something up and experimented from
> there -- making contacts along the way. Now, folks look at the
> internet and then second guess everything they read to the point of
> information overload and analyses paralyses.
>
> Too Bad,
>
> Richard
>
> K6VV
>

k6dgw

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by W2xj

Yes, to each his own. As a retired engineer, I relished the day I could
forego all of the planning, research, design + review cycles, quality
assurance reviews, prototype testing, test reviews, program management
reviews, customer reviews and feedback, and 250K miles/year on United
Airlines. I model antennas with EZNEC4, I'm old and endurance flags
some before the trial antenna is up.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 12/17/2018 2:43 PM, W2xj wrote:
> Remember this IS a hobby and to each their own. As an engineer, I do model and design what I use. I hate the “by guess and by golly” approach. Everything I do is carefully planned in advance and is a part of my enjoyment of the hobby but YMMV.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>

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Don Wilhelm

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

I am also a retired engineer, and I find that often it is quicker and
easier to put up an antenna cut to the "standard" formula (OK, I start a
bit longer than that), then check with an antenna analyzer and cut from
there. Modeling is great if you can take into consideration all factors
such as height, ground quality, surrounding objects, etc. - but it is
difficult to consider all that in advance.

If your desire is to obtain the horizontal and vertical radiation
patterns, then modeling is the best way to do that.

If you want to cut only once, use the technique I had published in QST
Technical Correspondence May 2018.
Cut the radiator to 468/F(MHz) plus 5 or 10%.
Measure the radiator length and put it in position. Then with your
antenna analyzer, measure the resonant frequency in MHz. Now multiply
the actual frequency times the length to find a new "cutting factor"
(will be different than 468). Divide that new 'cutting factor' by the
desired resonant frequency, and then trim the antenna to the new length
- put it up and it will work.

Remember that the resonant frequency is where the "X" component of the
antenna is zero - it may be the same as the lowest SWR, but not
necessarily so.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/17/2018 9:56 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
> Yes, to each his own. As a retired engineer, I relished the day I could
> forego all of the planning, research, design + review cycles, quality
> assurance reviews, prototype testing, test reviews, program management
> reviews, customer reviews and feedback, and 250K miles/year on United
> Airlines. I model antennas with EZNEC4, I'm old and endurance flags
> some before the trial antenna is up.
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W2xj

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

Coming from the broadcast side, especially AM broadcasting, I never considered resonance particularly important. Really it’s just the transmitter that cares. We always put matching at the antenna but in ham radio we usually have tuners at or in the TX.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 17, 2018, at 19:26, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I am also a retired engineer, and I find that often it is quicker and easier to put up an antenna cut to the "standard" formula (OK, I start a bit longer than that), then check with an antenna analyzer and cut from there. Modeling is great if you can take into consideration all factors such as height, ground quality, surrounding objects, etc. - but it is difficult to consider all that in advance.
>
> If your desire is to obtain the horizontal and vertical radiation patterns, then modeling is the best way to do that.
>
> If you want to cut only once, use the technique I had published in QST Technical Correspondence May 2018.
> Cut the radiator to 468/F(MHz) plus 5 or 10%.
> Measure the radiator length and put it in position. Then with your antenna analyzer, measure the resonant frequency in MHz. Now multiply the actual frequency times the length to find a new "cutting factor" (will be different than 468). Divide that new 'cutting factor' by the desired resonant frequency, and then trim the antenna to the new length - put it up and it will work.
>
> Remember that the resonant frequency is where the "X" component of the antenna is zero - it may be the same as the lowest SWR, but not necessarily so.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>> On 12/17/2018 9:56 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>> Yes, to each his own. As a retired engineer, I relished the day I could forego all of the planning, research, design + review cycles, quality assurance reviews, prototype testing, test reviews, program management reviews, customer reviews and feedback, and 250K miles/year on United Airlines. I model antennas with EZNEC4, I'm old and endurance flags some before the trial antenna is up.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Don Wilhelm

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

To my mind, a matching network at the antenna feedpoint can make an
antenna a resonant antenna as far as the feedline and transmitter are
concerned.
But it is often a single band affair as is resonant dipoles.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/17/2018 10:45 PM, W2xj wrote:
> Coming from the broadcast side, especially AM broadcasting, I never considered resonance particularly important. Really it’s just the transmitter that cares. We always put matching at the antenna but in ham radio we usually have tuners at or in the TX.
>
>

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W2xj

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

The transmitter and feedline is all that matters. Of coarse, in broadcast only a single frequency needs to be matched.

There are remotely controlled outdoor tuners for ham bands that perform the same or better than the typical indoor units.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 17, 2018, at 20:39, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> To my mind, a matching network at the antenna feedpoint can make an antenna a resonant antenna as far as the feedline and transmitter are concerned.
> But it is often a single band affair as is resonant dipoles.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>> On 12/17/2018 10:45 PM, W2xj wrote:
>> Coming from the broadcast side, especially AM broadcasting, I never considered resonance particularly important. Really it’s just the transmitter that cares. We always put matching at the antenna but in ham radio we usually have tuners at or in the TX.
>>
>>
>
>

Jim Brown-10

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

Beautifully put, Dave. I've had exactly the same experience, and I agree
on all points. And, by the way, as I get older, I'd far rather be doing
my learning in NEC and SimSmith than trudging through my woods or out on
FD or county expeditions putting up antennas that don't work well enough
to be worth the trouble!

73, Jim K9YC

On 12/17/2018 4:52 PM, David Gilbert wrote:

>
> I've been modeling antennas using EZNEC since back when it was ELNEC,
> and I've learned more about how antennas work using it than by any
> other means. It is fascinating to set up some wires in the model,
> plant a source somewhere, and then look at the radiation pattern and
> current distributions.
>
> Having been very active in Field Day over several decades and trying
> out different antennas (often more than one) each year, I would be
> willing to bet $100 that I have physically built more functioning
> antennas than you have. Analyses paralyses my ass.
>
> The point is that analysis and practice are not mutually exclusive,
> and anything that helps us actually understand what we do instead of
> blind trail and error is worth the time and effort it takes. Learning
> by any means is not "bad" ... it is very, very good.
>
> Dave AB7E
>
>
>
> On 12/17/2018 2:22 PM, DC wrote:
>> Good one!
>>
>>
>> Many hams now-days miss the most important point of all, I have
>> never made a contact by computer modeling, and worrying about wire
>> type and size. Back in the day, you put something up and
>> experimented from there -- making contacts along the way. Now, folks
>> look at the internet and then second guess everything they read to
>> the point of information overload and analyses paralyses.
>>
>> Too Bad,
>>
>> Richard
>>
>> K6VV
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
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Clay Autery-2

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

Remote controlled tuner.... <big smile>

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
(318) 518-1389

On 17-Dec-18 22:39, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> To my mind, a matching network at the antenna feedpoint can make an
> antenna a resonant antenna as far as the feedline and transmitter are
> concerned.
> But it is often a single band affair as is resonant dipoles.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 12/17/2018 10:45 PM, W2xj wrote:
>> Coming from the broadcast side, especially AM broadcasting, I never
>> considered resonance particularly important. Really it’s just the
>> transmitter that cares. We always put matching at the antenna but in
>> ham radio we usually have tuners at or in the TX.
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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JOE-2

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by rwwatson

Telephone drop wire makes a good antenna. Connect both wires for a fat
dipole. But, be careful. The phone company uses a device on the end
that attaches to the house that is a break-away in case a tree, etc
falls across the wire. The stuff is so strong that it will pull the
siding off your house.

I knew of someone who used it in a community with C&R restrictions. He
requested that he could put up a dog run. The dog run was actually his
antenna. When asked why the dog run had a wire going to the side of his
house and ground, he replied "lightning protection". He didn't want his
dog electrocuted during a storm. The ultimate stealth antenna.

73, Joe, K1ike

On 12/17/2018 11:39 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> if you can find telephone house service wire,,, is copper clad and
> impossible to brake
> makes good antenna,, not for use as feeders though
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Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT-3

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by W2xj

Broadcast stations rarely QSY.

On 12/17/2018 7:45 PM, W2xj wrote:
> Coming from the broadcast side, especially AM broadcasting, I never considered resonance particularly important. Really it’s just the transmitter that cares. We always put matching at the antenna but in ham radio we usually have tuners at or in the TX.
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W2xj

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

That’s why we have adjustable antenna tuners. Same concept.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 18, 2018, at 09:27, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Broadcast stations rarely QSY.
>
>> On 12/17/2018 7:45 PM, W2xj wrote:
>> Coming from the broadcast side, especially AM broadcasting, I never considered resonance particularly important. Really it’s just the transmitter that cares. We always put matching at the antenna but in ham radio we usually have tuners at or in the TX.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT-3

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

How often does the match change at a well-engineered broadcast station?

On 12/18/2018 9:47 AM, W2xj wrote:
> That’s why we have adjustable antenna tuners. Same concept.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Dec 18, 2018, at 09:27, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Broadcast stations rarely QSY.
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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

When the farmer plows up the ground field in the Spring! Grrrrr

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 12/18/2018 12:00 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:

> How often does the match change at a well-engineered broadcast station?
>
> On 12/18/2018 9:47 AM, W2xj wrote:
>> That’s why we have adjustable antenna tuners. Same concept.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Dec 18, 2018, at 09:27, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Broadcast stations rarely QSY.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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W2xj

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT-3

I was referring to ham tuners but shortwave broadcast stations QSY with hundreds of kilowatts many times a day.

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 18, 2018, at 10:00 AM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> How often does the match change at a well-engineered broadcast station?
>
>> On 12/18/2018 9:47 AM, W2xj wrote:
>> That’s why we have adjustable antenna tuners. Same concept.
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> On Dec 18, 2018, at 09:27, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Broadcast stations rarely QSY.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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W2xj

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

I always put mine down about 3 feet. Avoids both farmers and copper thieves.

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 18, 2018, at 10:21 AM, Bob McGraw K4TAX <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> When the farmer plows up the ground field in the Spring! Grrrrr
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
>> On 12/18/2018 12:00 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:
>> How often does the match change at a well-engineered broadcast station?
>>
>>> On 12/18/2018 9:47 AM, W2xj wrote:
>>> That’s why we have adjustable antenna tuners. Same concept.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Dec 18, 2018, at 09:27, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Broadcast stations rarely QSY.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by W2xj

But usually they have only 2 or 3 switched frequencies. They also switch directions, sometimes on different frequencies. All of these conditions are known and networks are pre set for the required combination.

Bob, K4TAX

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 18, 2018, at 12:35 PM, W2xj <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I was referring to ham tuners but shortwave broadcast stations QSY with hundreds of kilowatts many times a day.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Dec 18, 2018, at 10:00 AM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> How often does the match change at a well-engineered broadcast station?
>>
>>> On 12/18/2018 9:47 AM, W2xj wrote:
>>> That’s why we have adjustable antenna tuners. Same concept.
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> On Dec 18, 2018, at 09:27, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Broadcast stations rarely QSY.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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k6dgw

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by W2xj

Indeed. AM broadcast vertical antennas are rarely 90 or 180 degrees,
especially if they are a Class A station. I think both KFI and KNX in
Los Angeles have 195 deg verticals. The design goal is to maximize
field strength in the service area, accomplished by adjusting the height
of the current maxima in the antenna element. All resonance means is
that the reactive component of the impedance at the feed point is zero.
A bigger problem for stations at the low end of the band ... KFI is at
640 KHz ... is that the usable bandwidth of the antenna can be less than
the bandwidth of the DSB signal. [:-) Last time I saw KFI's tower from
Interstate 5, it appeared to have a fairly large capacity hat.

Elecraft ATU's [even the KX1 which is necessarily small with a limited
number of L-C selections] seem to handle reactive loads just fine
suggesting [to me at least] that designing an antenna for azimuth and/or
elevation pattern may be more beneficial than achieving resonance in the
desired part of the band.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 12/17/2018 7:45 PM, W2xj wrote:
> Coming from the broadcast side, especially AM broadcasting, I never considered resonance particularly important. Really it’s just the transmitter that cares. We always put matching at the antenna but in ham radio we usually have tuners at or in the TX.
>

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Elecraft mailing list

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

If I remember right, the first rule in designing a BC antenna, when dirt was new, was PATTERN coverage. Once that was achieved they fixed everything else. Resonance??????? No one cared.
Mel, K6KBE

From: Fred Jensen <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

Indeed. AM broadcast vertical antennas are rarely 90 or 180 degrees,
especially if they are a Class A station. I think both KFI and KNX in
Los Angeles have 195 deg verticals. The design goal is to maximize
field strength in the service area, accomplished by adjusting the height
of the current maxima in the antenna element. All resonance means is
that the reactive component of the impedance at the feed point is zero.
A bigger problem for stations at the low end of the band ... KFI is at
640 KHz ... is that the usable bandwidth of the antenna can be less than
the bandwidth of the DSB signal. [:-) Last time I saw KFI's tower from
Interstate 5, it appeared to have a fairly large capacity hat.

Elecraft ATU's [even the KX1 which is necessarily small with a limited
number of L-C selections] seem to handle reactive loads just fine
suggesting [to me at least] that designing an antenna for azimuth and/or
elevation pattern may be more beneficial than achieving resonance in the
desired part of the band.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 12/17/2018 7:45 PM, W2xj wrote:
> Coming from the broadcast side, especially AM broadcasting, I never considered resonance particularly important. Really it’s just the transmitter that cares. We always put matching at the antenna but in ham radio we usually have tuners at or in the TX.
>

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