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Clock Accuracy

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John Kountz

Clock Accuracy

Besides trivializing the subject, has anyone a way to make the clock in the
K# accurate. I foind it of value when in places like Kabul where there is
no access to WWV (for example) and while working a contest (like CQ WWSSB).
John Kountz, KE6GFF/T6EE

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wayne burdick

Re: Clock Accuracy

Administrator

Hi John,

The clock's accuracy is typically +/- 2 seconds per day. If that
doesn't suffice for a long trip, and you don't have a timepiece to
correlate it to, you could attempt to adjust the frequency of the
clock crystal closer to 32768 Hz. This usually requires some long-term
experimentation. Putting a frequency counter on the crystal will load
it down unless you have a very low-C FET probe.

There's a capacitor connected to the crystal that can be adjusted in
value slightly without impacting the oscillator. It's easy to slow the
clock down; just parallel a small amount of additional capacitance.
Speeding it up requires a decrease in capacitance, which means
removing a surface mount capacitor first. Let me know if you need
advice on how to do this.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by John Kountz

Time set is in the config menu. It is on page 53 in my manual. It is not easy to figure out, but activate the Config menu, find TIME with the VFO B knob. Tap 1 for hours, 2 for minutes, 3 for seconds then rotate the VFO A knob to change the number. If your problem is finding the correct time in Kabul, use your GPS to find the correct time. Hope this is what you are asking.
Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ

________________________________
From: John <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thu, June 24, 2010 12:24:35 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Clock Accuracy

Besides trivializing the subject, has anyone a way to make the clock in the
K# accurate. I foind it of value when in places like Kabul where there is
no access to WWV (for example) and while working a contest (like CQ WWSSB).
John Kountz, KE6GFF/T6EE

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Rick Dettinger-3

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

My clock runs about 15 seconds fast by the end of summer, and this is
made up by the following spring in my sometimes heated ham shack. The
annual error is very small. But temperature is a factor. I
originally thought that all frequencies on the K3 would be controlled
by the TCXO, but, of course, it is not running all the time.

73,
Rick Dettinger K7MW

On Jun 24, 2010, at 11:00 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> The clock's accuracy is typically +/- 2 seconds per day. If that
> doesn't suffice for a long trip, and you don't have a timepiece to
> correlate it to, you could attempt to adjust the frequency of the
> clock crystal closer to 32768 Hz. This usually requires some long-term
> experimentation. Putting a frequency counter on the crystal will load
> it down unless you have a very low-C FET probe.
>
> There's a capacitor connected to the crystal that can be adjusted in
> value slightly without impacting the oscillator. It's easy to slow the
> clock down; just parallel a small amount of additional capacitance.
> Speeding it up requires a decrease in capacitance, which means
> removing a surface mount capacitor first. Let me know if you need
> advice on how to do this.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
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John Kountz

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Wayne,
Finally!
John
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wayne burdick

Re: Clock Accuracy

Administrator

In reply to this post by Rick Dettinger-3

The TCXO has no relation to the K3's real-time clock, which has its
own crystal. Neat idea, though :) Of course the RTC is powered at all
times, even with the rig is off, via its own 3-V battery. The TXCO is
powered down when the rig is off.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Jun 24, 2010, at 11:19 AM, Rick Dettinger wrote:

> My clock runs about 15 seconds fast by the end of summer, and this
> is made up by the following spring in my sometimes heated ham
> shack. The annual error is very small. But temperature is a
> factor. I originally thought that all frequencies on the K3 would
> be controlled by the TCXO, but, of course, it is not running all the
> time.
>
> 73,
> Rick Dettinger K7MW
>
>
>
> On Jun 24, 2010, at 11:00 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> The clock's accuracy is typically +/- 2 seconds per day....

Richard Dowling

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by John Kountz

I'm curious which way the clock is off, fast or slow?

There is a dedicated clock IC on the front panel board which has a
fixed capacitor across the 32.768 KHz crystal. The data sheet for
the PCF8563 clock IC states that that capicator can made a trimmer to
set the frequency exactly. Of course, if the problem is in the way
the MCU updates the clock, say internally rather than reading the
clock IC, then errors could accumulate until the MCU reads the clock IC again.

Richard
KL0DR

At 09:24 AM 6/24/2010, John wrote:

>Besides trivializing the subject, has anyone a way to make the clock in the
>K# accurate. I foind it of value when in places like Kabul where there is
>no access to WWV (for example) and while working a contest (like CQ WWSSB).
>John Kountz, KE6GFF/T6EE
>
>______________________________________________________________
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M0XDF

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Regarding the battery, is there a way to check it's voltage or projected life - without taking the cover off and measuring it?
73 de M0XDF
--
A successful man is one who makes more money than a wife can spend. A
successful woman is one who can find such a man.
-Lana Turner, actress (1921-1995)

On 24 Jun 2010, at 19:28, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> The TCXO has no relation to the K3's real-time clock, which has its
> own crystal. Neat idea, though :) Of course the RTC is powered at all
> times, even with the rig is off, via its own 3-V battery. The TXCO is
> powered down when the rig is off.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
> On Jun 24, 2010, at 11:19 AM, Rick Dettinger wrote:
>
>> My clock runs about 15 seconds fast by the end of summer, and this
>> is made up by the following spring in my sometimes heated ham
>> shack. The annual error is very small. But temperature is a
>> factor. I originally thought that all frequencies on the K3 would
>> be controlled by the TCXO, but, of course, it is not running all the
>> time.
>>
>> 73,
>> Rick Dettinger K7MW
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 24, 2010, at 11:00 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>>
>>> Hi John,
>>>
>>> The clock's accuracy is typically +/- 2 seconds per day....
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alsopb

Re: Clock Accuracy

David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote:
> Regarding the battery, is there a way to check it's voltage or projected life - without taking the cover off and measuring it?
> 73 de M0XDF

Reminds me of the same suggestion implemented in a few IBM prototype
PC'S for the CMOS battery. They devised a circuit to go in and test it
many times per day. Unfortunately, the act of repeatedly testing it
removed enough energy to greatly shorten battery life.

They dropped the idea.

73 de Brian/K3KO
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Phil Salas

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by Cookie

"...Time set is in the config menu. .."

The easiest way is to use the K3 Utility. Trivial setting the time this
way.

Phil - AD5X

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Richard Dowling

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by alsopb

The RTC IC has a low voltage detector which sets a bit in the seconds
register. Thus (from the IC data sheet):

8.5 Voltage-low detector and clock monitor
The PCF8563 has an on-chip voltage-low detector. When VDD drops below Vlow the
VL bit (Voltage Low, bit 7 in the Seconds register) is set to
indicate that reliable
clock/calendar information is no longer guaranteed. The VL flag can
only be cleared
by software

So it's easy, just software ;-)

Richard
KL0DR

At 10:43 AM 6/24/2010, Brian Alsop wrote:

>David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote:
> > Regarding the battery, is there a way to check it's voltage or
> projected life - without taking the cover off and measuring it?
> > 73 de M0XDF
>
>Reminds me of the same suggestion implemented in a few IBM prototype
>PC'S for the CMOS battery. They devised a circuit to go in and test it
>many times per day. Unfortunately, the act of repeatedly testing it
>removed enough energy to greatly shorten battery life.
>
>They dropped the idea.
>
>73 de Brian/K3KO
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M0XDF

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by alsopb

I'd like to be able to check occasionally - the K3 is quite often off 12v for some time
73 de M0XDF, K3 #174
--
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons,
For you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

On 24 Jun 2010, at 19:43, Brian Alsop wrote:

> David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote:
>> Regarding the battery, is there a way to check it's voltage or projected life - without taking the cover off and measuring it?
>> 73 de M0XDF
>
> Reminds me of the same suggestion implemented in a few IBM prototype
> PC'S for the CMOS battery. They devised a circuit to go in and test it
> many times per day. Unfortunately, the act of repeatedly testing it
> removed enough energy to greatly shorten battery life.
>
> They dropped the idea.
>
> 73 de Brian/K3KO
> ______________________________________________________________
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M0XDF

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by Richard Dowling

so perhaps that could be added to the Utility
73 de M0XDF
--
A good cook is like a sorceress who dispenses happiness.
-Elsa Schiaparelli, fashion designer (1890-1973)

On 24 Jun 2010, at 20:11, Richard Dowling wrote:

> The RTC IC has a low voltage detector which sets a bit in the seconds
> register. Thus (from the IC data sheet):
>
> 8.5 Voltage-low detector and clock monitor
> The PCF8563 has an on-chip voltage-low detector. When VDD drops below Vlow the
> VL bit (Voltage Low, bit 7 in the Seconds register) is set to
> indicate that reliable
> clock/calendar information is no longer guaranteed. The VL flag can
> only be cleared
> by software
>
> So it's easy, just software ;-)
>
> Richard
> KL0DR
>
> At 10:43 AM 6/24/2010, Brian Alsop wrote:
>> David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote:
>>> Regarding the battery, is there a way to check it's voltage or
>> projected life - without taking the cover off and measuring it?
>>> 73 de M0XDF
>>
>> Reminds me of the same suggestion implemented in a few IBM prototype
>> PC'S for the CMOS battery. They devised a circuit to go in and test it
>> many times per day. Unfortunately, the act of repeatedly testing it
>> removed enough energy to greatly shorten battery life.
>>
>> They dropped the idea.
>>
>> 73 de Brian/K3KO
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
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Bob-270

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by Richard Dowling

Would not the act of changing the battery clear/reset this bit. With
no battery present what
would sustain this information?

Bob
K2TK

On 6/24/2010 3:11 PM, Richard Dowling wrote:

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by M0XDF

David,

The coin battery is not recharged - it operates standalone. It will
normally last for several years. Consider the frequency with which you
have to replace those coin batteries in computers - the K3 clock battery
should have a similar lifetime.

73,
Don W3FPR

David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote:
> I'd like to be able to check occasionally - the K3 is quite often off 12v for some time
> 73 de M0XDF, K3 #174
>
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Dick Dievendorff

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by M0XDF

The click chip is not directly accessible from the RS 232 interface

Dick, K6KR

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 24, 2010, at 12:35 PM, "David Ferrington, M0XDF" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> so perhaps that could be added to the Utility
> 73 de M0XDF
> --
> A good cook is like a sorceress who dispenses happiness.
> -Elsa Schiaparelli, fashion designer (1890-1973)
>
> On 24 Jun 2010, at 20:11, Richard Dowling wrote:
>
>> The RTC IC has a low voltage detector which sets a bit in the seconds
>> register. Thus (from the IC data sheet):
>>
>> 8.5 Voltage-low detector and clock monitor
>> The PCF8563 has an on-chip voltage-low detector. When VDD drops below Vlow the
>> VL bit (Voltage Low, bit 7 in the Seconds register) is set to
>> indicate that reliable
>> clock/calendar information is no longer guaranteed. The VL flag can
>> only be cleared
>> by software
>>
>> So it's easy, just software ;-)
>>
>> Richard
>> KL0DR
>>
>> At 10:43 AM 6/24/2010, Brian Alsop wrote:
>>> David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote:
>>>> Regarding the battery, is there a way to check it's voltage or
>>> projected life - without taking the cover off and measuring it?
>>>> 73 de M0XDF
>>>
>>> Reminds me of the same suggestion implemented in a few IBM prototype
>>> PC'S for the CMOS battery. They devised a circuit to go in and test it
>>> many times per day. Unfortunately, the act of repeatedly testing it
>>> removed enough energy to greatly shorten battery life.
>>>
>>> They dropped the idea.
>>>
>>> 73 de Brian/K3KO
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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M0XDF

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Thanks Don, in that case I won't worry about it.
I realised it wasn't recharged, but thought perhaps the drain was less when the K3 is connected to 12v.
73 de M0XDF, K3 #174
--
It is not how old you are, but how you are old. -Jules Renard, writer
(1864-1910)

On 24 Jun 2010, at 20:53, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> David,
>
> The coin battery is not recharged - it operates standalone. It will normally last for several years. Consider the frequency with which you have to replace those coin batteries in computers - the K3 clock battery should have a similar lifetime.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote:
>> I'd like to be able to check occasionally - the K3 is quite often off 12v for some time
>> 73 de M0XDF, K3 #174
>>

VE3NFK

Re: Clock Accuracy

Hi Wayne

I'd like to adjust mine - would the cap on the clock chip be worth changing to a trimmer?

Clock is slow by 4 MINUTES after 4 months which is bit annoying.

Thanks and 73 John VE3NFK

wayne burdick

Re: Clock Accuracy

Administrator

On Jun 24, 2010, at 3:34 PM, VE3NFK wrote:

>
>
> Hi Wayne
>
> I'd like to adjust mine - would the cap on the clock chip be worth
> changing
> to a trimmer?

You could do that.

>
> Clock is slow by 4 MINUTES after 4 months which is bit annoying.

That's right at the upper boundary of the accuracy spec. If you don't
put a trimmer on, maybe check it against WWV once a month?

Also note that you can automatically update the RTC based on your PC's
time/date whenever you run K3Utility.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

>
> Thanks and 73 John VE3NFK
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Clock-Accuracy-tp5218803p5219883.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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VE3NFK

Re: Clock Accuracy

Thanks Wayne

I know about and use the K3 Utility - but would like it to be better
- IF you know off the top of your head which cap to change for a
trimmer then that would be nice - otherwise I'll dig through the
schematics.

Won't do it until next time I need to open 'er up!

73 John VE3N

On 24 June 2010 18:58, wayne burdick [via Elecraft]
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Jun 24, 2010, at 3:34 PM, VE3NFK wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Hi Wayne
>>
>> I'd like to adjust mine - would the cap on the clock chip be worth
>> changing
>> to a trimmer?
>
> You could do that.
>
>>
>> Clock is slow by 4 MINUTES after 4 months which is bit annoying.
>
> That's right at the upper boundary of the accuracy spec. If you don't
> put a trimmer on, maybe check it against WWV once a month?
>
> Also note that you can automatically update the RTC based on your PC's
> time/date whenever you run K3Utility.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>>
>> Thanks and 73 John VE3NFK
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Clock-Accuracy-tp5218803p5219883.html
>> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> ______________________________________________________________
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