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Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

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The Smiths

Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

I'm not happy with the expeceted price of the P3, but even I know that I'm not getting "sucked into" anything... Did he really think that once he paid his money he couldn't back out? Seriously? Highly questionable business practice? Please....

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 17:04:50 -0800
> CC: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation
>
> They would have refunded your money if you wanted to back out you
> weren't sucked into anything.
>
> ~Brett
>
>
> On Sat, 2010-02-13 at 11:08 -0500, S Sacco wrote:
> > Guy -
> >
> > Please don't forget that Elecraft sucked in quite a few of us on the K3 by
> > promising wildly optimistic delivery dates. I consider that to be a highly
> > questionable business practice.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 9:42 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]>wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 1:29 AM, Dave - AB7E <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Are the feature list and specifications now firm? And if so, what are
> > > they? I would have thought that anyone contemplating spending $700 for any
> > > box, even with the Elecraft name on it, would want to know what it does
> > > before sending off the check.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I should note that putting a prototype, and then later a working early
> > > model in front of the public for comment at some convention-style
> > > event, is RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT. Early ham feedback at hamfests is
> > > essential, and it too is R&D.
> > >
> > > It's only the customers (and pent up demand) that are mistakenly
> > > insisting that they are slow. You want the kind of innovation and
> > > service they are known for, you have to wait. It's not a flaw or
> > > laziness, or some kind of commie plot to rob us of our toys. It's
> > > careful business. Good stuff at good prices is the hardest thing to
> > > do. What was that thing, you can have two of the three, quick,
> > > quality, low price? (Personally, I'm betting quality AND low price is
> > > at the root of the amp thing, I'll wait.)
> > >
> > > I wonder if anyone has noticed businesses going down for getting even
> > > close to the edge these days? Hello? The early plunk for the K3 was
> > > a VOLUNTARY early alternative financing scheme. Lot better than them
> > > being leveraged by a bank that pulls the plug on them for completely
> > > unrelated reasons. Any Rip Van Winkle types please check the
> > > financials for the last couple of years for historical information and
> > > note that Ronald Reagan is not president any more.
> > >
> > > Personally, I want Elecraft around for a while. Conservative business
> > > practices with no screeching tires at cliff's edge is just super
> > > peachy fine by me. There is no TARP fund bailout for Elecraft. They go
> > > down, we're back to getting our stuff from Yakencom and stuck with
> > > what they decide for us, whether we like it or not.
> > >
> > > And some folks WOULD plunk now for unfirm features (and there's no big
> > > gorilla around MAKING anyone plunk -- it's a CHOICE one makes), with
> > > the personal SELF-assurance that if it isn't what they want, they can
> > > come here and sell it on the reflector, fast.
> > >
> > > 73, Guy.
> > > ______________________________________________________________
> > > Elecraft mailing list
> > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> > >
> > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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> > >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
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>
>
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Phil Hystad

Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

Does anyone know if this is a kit (likely a simple kit?) or something that is all ready to be plugged in and used?

73, phil, K7PEH

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

In reply to this post by The Smiths

To all,

Let's stay cool on the speculation here for a while until more facts are
available. Eric is in Orlando, and I am certain when he returns, there
will be information on the Elecraft website about the P3, and maybe even
the price. Wait until at least Wednesday so Eric can clear his email
overload on Monday and Tuesday!

The cost of the P3 will be what it can be. Elecraft must figure out how
is allocated to the R & D budget, how much for productions costs, etc.
Eric and Wayne will make that cost as low as practical - IMHO, there is
no sense in us speculating on how much it should be.
In the end, we each will have to make our decisions based on our own
perceived value-added for our operating experience.

I for one will not likely buy the P3, maybe later, but definitely not at
this time. I do not have need nor desire for a standalone panoramic
display. Yes, I am working on a Z10000/Softrock solution to add that
function to my K3. I do not mind having a computer up and running while
I am hamming - that is a normal state of affairs for me. I will wait
and see how my homebrew LP-PAN works out for me - I foresee benefit when
I run digital modes, but just how much remains to be seen - I may or may
not like it.

The bottom line is - All this haggling about what the top price should
be - well, that is your individual clip point - it will not be the same
for everyone. Some will buy it at any cost, just because it is Elecraft
and matches the K3, and on the other end of the scale, there are those
who must weigh the benefit for their operation against the actual cost
and make a decision about the P3 or some other alternative. I for one
do not take my K3 along on trips or DXpeditions (I take my QRP K2), but
I can see benefit for the standalone P3 for those who do want to take
that sort of package with them. In the end, each will have to weight
the advantages and disadvantages against their ham budget and operating
desires, then reach a conclusion. Too much pre-mature and speculative
posting on this subject has already transpired in my opinion. but have
at it, my delete key is now working.

73,
Don W3FPR

The Smiths wrote:
> Fair enough, you make a good point, $50 is a little close.. So I would say that $525 to $600 should be the top number. I'll take the extra $100 you want to over pay and use it to help buy me another Begali or GHD Key! :)
>
> (let's not even get into those numbers!)
>
>
>
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Ken Kopp-3

K3 - P3 combination

Well said, Don.

Rose will have both a single P3 cover and a
combination K3/P3 cover as soon as I get
mine ... for dimensions. (:-))

73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
[hidden email]
http://tinyurl.com/7lm3m5
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Ted Roycraft

Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

In reply to this post by KM4VX

I had the IC756PRO series from 2001 to last August and at first I was
impressed with the scope function but in a short time I found that it
was not terribly useful but was fun to look at. It was lacking a
waterfall capability which the P3 (as well as PowerSDR-IF) had which
makes all the difference. Also, the bandwidth displayed by the 756PRO
is much less than that capable of the P3 and PowerDDR-IF. I'm afraid
that the scope display of the 756PRO doesn't come close to the
usefulness P3, from what I've seen, or to PowerSDR-IF.

73, Ted, W2ZK

On 2/13/2010 8:04 PM, KM4VX wrote:

> The P3 looks and appears to act much like the excellent screen which is
> integrated into my IC 756 PRO 3. Since we like the K3 so much Elecraft
> decided to compete with a separate panadapter like the P3, rather than a
> K4. I think the LP-PAN kit for $175.00, with free software connected to a
> computer that anyone who wants a panadapter has anyway, represents a much
> better investment for me. I can run all sorts of software with the LP-PAN.
> The P3 is just the scope addition to the 756 in its own box. I don't think
> the P3 market is there except as we are now marketing it. This is a
> sophisticated and tech savvy group; maybe just too loose with its cash Of
> course I will be proven wrong, which is okay because I wish the company all
> the best.
>
>

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S Sacco

Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

In reply to this post by Brett Howard

Brett -

While we're thinking about stuff...where do you suppose most of the
components inside the P3 were manufactured?

Regarding support...I don't know...HP (hardware) and Microsoft (OS)
seem to have pretty large websites with lots of information on
them...and plenty of updates...especially Microsoft security patches
that they so like to dump on us every few Tuesdays. :-)

Yeah, Elecraft support is excellent, but the flip side is that the
company has a tendency to sell products that are not quite ready yet.
I know; my first K3 was delivered 9 months after it was first
promised.

On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Brett Howard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> All of that equipment was made by teams of Chinese people who are paid
> very poorly and aren't treated all that well either. The P3 is a labor
> of love put together by a select few engineers. Its probably built by
> people in California with health coverage, life insurance, and a decent
> living wage...
>
> Not to mention that Elecraft provides excellent support beyond that of
> the sale! You're not going to get that from the company that made that
> computer. You're not going to be informed of hardware modifications and
> upgrades that will improve your system with well done step by step
> documentation written up on how to perform the mods. Not to mention
> that they'll even kit the parts to you if you can't find them on your
> own. You get more than just the hardware for your 700 bucks!
>
> Just something to think about! Personally I see it as a little high but
> still yet very fair!
>
> ~Brett (KC7OTG)

N8LP

Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

You're comparing apples to oranges, Joe. PowerSDR and other SDR apps which use sound card interfaces have to process a whole lot more data than the K3 does. So do the sound cards and their drivers. The K3 is concerned with the speech passband, while many of the SDR apps process hundreds of kHz worth of bandwidth in realtime.

For kicks, I just ran a quick test using LP-PAN/PowerSDR-IF v1.19.02. I compared the timing of the K3 output to the PC sound card output for 7 different sound cards on two PCs, an older P4 desktop and a year old, dual core laptop. I also tried several different SDR apps, but not all the apps were capable of providing sound card output with all the cards. I used 192 kHz sampling whenever possible, with a buffer setting of 2K and ASIO driver.

In general, I found a delay range of about 15-30mS, depending on card, app and sample rate. With the popular E-MU 0202 USB card and PowerSDR-IF at 192 kHz using the standard settings, the result was 21mS (1/50 of a second) on my laptop. PowerSDR was no worse than the other apps.

The delay has never really bothered me. I don't listen to both the K3 and PowerSDR at the same time... at least not the same signal. I mainly listen to PowerSDR in MultiRX mode when running split so that I have dual receivers, or when listening to AM broadcast. Otherwise, I just listen to the K3 and use PowerSDR only as a pan display.

Contrary to your comment that PowerSDR is the worst part of the Flex radios, a lot of Flex owners only migrated to the K3 after seeing that they could still use PowerSDR, which was their favorite part of the Flex radio. I have heard this comment more times than I can count.

73,
Larry N8LP

<quote author="Joe Subich, W4TV-4">

> Don't forget that the LP Pan allows you to run the SDR-IF
> software suite.

Why would you brag about bringing the worst part of the
Flex-radio to the K3? PowerSDR is the worst interface
in the world for a radio ... the FFT delays make the
K3 monitor sound instantaneous.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

Brett Howard

Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

In reply to this post by S Sacco

Hell Yaesu has a great website with lots of information. Try giving
them a call and getting them to help you debug an issue! Try emailing
a designer! If you think Microsoft and HP provides excellent support
of their products you have a low standard.

As far as your K3 arriving later than you thought it would its not
like you were forced into waiting for it. If you wanted your money
back you'd have been handed all of your payment in full no questions
asked. EVERYONE who ordered a K3 that early KNEW that it was going to
take a long time. Mine took around 10 months to get from the time
that I ordered it. I knew it was going to take that long and hell
they didn't even take my money until they shipped it.

The K3 was sold just in time and it was plenty ready as far as
hardware goes. The list of changes in the radio as far as hardware
are quite small. The changes are minor tweaks for the most part as
well! Heck some of them are even improvements that add features that
no one was even expecting (like the high RF protection mod).

For someone who complains so much about the products you sure hang out
here a lot. If they were as bad as you like to let on one would think
you'd have gone somewhere else. I feel the fact that you stick around
and keep complaining undeniable proof that Elecraft does it better
than anyone else. That fact that you voted with your money and own
their products solidify it even further.

I only feel the need to call you out on it because someone else coming
into this area who's not used to hearing you complain might get the
wrong idea and think that there is actually a problem with the way
Elecraft does business! When really its just that you like to get
your gripes heard early and often.

~Brett (KC7OTG)

On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 7:38 PM, S Sacco <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Brett -
>
> While we're thinking about stuff...where do you suppose most of the
> components inside the P3 were manufactured?
>
> Regarding support...I don't know...HP (hardware) and Microsoft (OS)
> seem to have pretty large websites with lots of information on
> them...and plenty of updates...especially Microsoft security patches
> that they so like to dump on us every few Tuesdays. :-)
>
> Yeah, Elecraft support is excellent, but the flip side is that the
> company has a tendency to sell products that are not quite ready yet.
> I know; my first K3 was delivered 9 months after it was first
> promised.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Brett Howard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> All of that equipment was made by teams of Chinese people who are paid
>> very poorly and aren't treated all that well either. The P3 is a labor
>> of love put together by a select few engineers. Its probably built by
>> people in California with health coverage, life insurance, and a decent
>> living wage...
>>
>> Not to mention that Elecraft provides excellent support beyond that of
>> the sale! You're not going to get that from the company that made that
>> computer. You're not going to be informed of hardware modifications and
>> upgrades that will improve your system with well done step by step
>> documentation written up on how to perform the mods. Not to mention
>> that they'll even kit the parts to you if you can't find them on your
>> own. You get more than just the hardware for your 700 bucks!
>>
>> Just something to think about! Personally I see it as a little high but
>> still yet very fair!
>>
>> ~Brett (KC7OTG)
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

John Ronan

Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

On 14 Feb 2010, at 08:59, Brett Howard wrote:

> As far as your K3 arriving later than you thought it would its not
> like you were forced into waiting for it.
Um mine (2184) arrived earlier than I was expecting, about 6 weeks actually. Made me a very happy chappie.

de John
EI7IG
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Jeff kb2m

Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

In reply to this post by Julian, G4ILO

I'm running SDR-IF 192k wide on a $399 3 year old 2.20 gigahertz Pentium
Dual Non hyper-threaded processor with 2 gig of memory under WIN7 32 bit. I
have a $229 24 inch monitor, and a used Infrasonic Quartet soundcard I
picked up for $90.The SDR-IF software uses about 25% of the screens real
estate. I just tested SDR-IF's CPU usage. It is under 17% average. I just
watched a video I selected from MSN, it uses on average 44% CPU. Along with
LP-Bridge running I can use several programs simultaneously with the K3 When
in contest mode I run SDR-IF, LP-Bridge, Logic8, and contest specific
logging software. I can control the K3 with either piece of software via the
virtual com ports in LP-Bridge, via a mouse click, or turn of a knob. While
this is up and running I read email, view videos, chat with my GF's on
Yahoo, MSN, etc without a burp, and without any geek type system tweaking,
plug and play. This to me is the ultimate shack setup made possible with the
K3's IF out. I'm one of the people Larry mentions that switched over from
Flex. I owned a Flex 1000 for several years. Part of my preference to the
SDR-IF software is I've been running it for 4 or 5 years.
Do I need a P3? No, and I don't see myself lusting for one. Where I think
Elecraft is going with this is to a QRO rig. This K4 if you will, will be
200 watts output, have a bandscope (the one we see today) built in, room for
actual band select buttons, more room between knobs, more knobs, less menu
items, a nice set of dual speakers, etc. A 70cm module and the ability to
run full duplex on the satellites would be nice. I would sell my 9000D and
buy one of them. Ok enough, the sun is shining, I'm obviously snowed in
here, and need to get out of the house :>)

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Julian, G4ILO
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 12:12 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation
>But I'm equally sure there are a lot of people who don't want the huge ugly
screen hogging
>resource hogging PowerSDR application just to show them a graphical display
of band activity.

73 Jeff kb2m

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S Sacco

Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

In reply to this post by Brett Howard

Hi Brett -

I seriously think you're missing the point. The point was that other
companies offer support, too, and they do. I agreed that Elecraft
support is outstanding, so I'm pretty sure we're in agreement there.

I note that you did not comment on the origin of the components inside
the K3. ;-)

While I like my K3's, I think you're romanticizing Elecraft. They're
a for-profit business, and although staffed with passionate and highly
talented people, I'm sure would close their doors if they could not
turn a profit, which is entirely appropriate. I don't want anyone
starving just to keep me happy - that would be Communism. Perhaps I'm
alone in this regard, but I don't have an image in my mind of a wildly
outnumbered band of Elecraftians ("Elecraftites"?) fighting valiantly
on my behalf for all that's good and right and 10 dB better, versus
the vastly larger, massed, swarming technical armies of YaeKenCom-Tec.

Regarding me not being forced to purchase the K3. Brett, I've had
this discussion MANY times, and have never once lost the argument. I
was not, IMHO, particularly upstanding of Elecraft to publish a wildly
optimistic release date, and then continue to publish wildly
optimistic follow-on dates, most likely for the purpose of maintaining
their existing orders, and attracting new ones. Wrong is just wrong,
you know what I mean? Just because I could have chosen something else
doesn't make what Elecraft did OK. Those, apparently like yourself,
who have a lower threshold for what's ethical...that's your business,
but that doesn't mean I have to agree, or lower MY standards, or not
raise the issue when I feel it is appropriate. I sure hope they ship
the P3 when they say they'll ship it. I may be wrong, but I think
they did the same thing - strung out the release date - with the KRX3,
didn't they?

My goodness...I haven't said a peep in ages...yet, bewilderingly, you
say: "someone who complains so much about the products you sure hang
out here a lot. ". If, by "hang out here a lot", you mean "subscribe
to the mailing list", then guilty as charged. I also subscribe to the
k3 mailing list on Yahoo. Hope that's cool with you. :-)

You're hardly "calling me out". (see above regarding the frequency
of my posting).

Sooo...the bottom line is that I think $700 is an awful lot of money
for the P3, and I said so, and you don't think it's too much, and
you've criticized me for expressing my opinion.

Speaking of K3's, I have to finish putting one of mine back together.
U1 on the DSP board burned out (thanks, Gary, for the fast support on
that!) - but it shouldn't have (AF amplifiers are hardly high-tech).
Originally, I ordered a new DSP board, but after a couple of week's
waiting and no notice of shipping, I made an inquiry, only to find
that they weren't in stock, and wouldn't be for a few more weeks.
(Thanks Lisa for your help with that!). So, once again, we have
great support on one hand, and a strange disconnect (no notification
that the board wouldn't be available for awhile) on the other. I went
to "Plan B", and had a friend of mine who has SMT experience and
equipment, and he replaced the IC for me. I won't get the updates,
but they're not that important to me.

Take good care, Brett!

73,
Steve NN4X
EL98jh

On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 3:59 AM, Brett Howard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hell Yaesu has a great website with lots of information. Try giving
> them a call and getting them to help you debug an issue! Try emailing
> a designer! If you think Microsoft and HP provides excellent support
> of their products you have a low standard.
>
> As far as your K3 arriving later than you thought it would its not
> like you were forced into waiting for it. If you wanted your money
> back you'd have been handed all of your payment in full no questions
> asked. EVERYONE who ordered a K3 that early KNEW that it was going to
> take a long time. Mine took around 10 months to get from the time
> that I ordered it. I knew it was going to take that long and hell
> they didn't even take my money until they shipped it.
>
> The K3 was sold just in time and it was plenty ready as far as
> hardware goes. The list of changes in the radio as far as hardware
> are quite small. The changes are minor tweaks for the most part as
> well! Heck some of them are even improvements that add features that
> no one was even expecting (like the high RF protection mod).
>
> For someone who complains so much about the products you sure hang out
> here a lot. If they were as bad as you like to let on one would think
> you'd have gone somewhere else. I feel the fact that you stick around
> and keep complaining undeniable proof that Elecraft does it better
> than anyone else. That fact that you voted with your money and own
> their products solidify it even further.
>
> I only feel the need to call you out on it because someone else coming
> into this area who's not used to hearing you complain might get the
> wrong idea and think that there is actually a problem with the way
> Elecraft does business! When really its just that you like to get
> your gripes heard early and often.
>
> ~Brett (KC7OTG)
>
> On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 7:38 PM, S Sacco <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Brett -
>>
>> While we're thinking about stuff...where do you suppose most of the
>> components inside the P3 were manufactured?
>>
>> Regarding support...I don't know...HP (hardware) and Microsoft (OS)
>> seem to have pretty large websites with lots of information on
>> them...and plenty of updates...especially Microsoft security patches
>> that they so like to dump on us every few Tuesdays. :-)
>>
>> Yeah, Elecraft support is excellent, but the flip side is that the
>> company has a tendency to sell products that are not quite ready yet.
>> I know; my first K3 was delivered 9 months after it was first
>> promised.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Brett Howard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> All of that equipment was made by teams of Chinese people who are paid
>>> very poorly and aren't treated all that well either. The P3 is a labor
>>> of love put together by a select few engineers. Its probably built by
>>> people in California with health coverage, life insurance, and a decent
>>> living wage...
>>>
>>> Not to mention that Elecraft provides excellent support beyond that of
>>> the sale! You're not going to get that from the company that made that
>>> computer. You're not going to be informed of hardware modifications and
>>> upgrades that will improve your system with well done step by step
>>> documentation written up on how to perform the mods. Not to mention
>>> that they'll even kit the parts to you if you can't find them on your
>>> own. You get more than just the hardware for your 700 bucks!
>>>
>>> Just something to think about! Personally I see it as a little high but
>>> still yet very fair!
>>>
>>> ~Brett (KC7OTG)
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>

Brett Howard

Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

Sure I can comment on the origin of parts:

There is nothing one can do about the origin of the parts... I work in
the electronics design industry as well and there really is nothing you
can build if you're only willing to use parts made in the USA. But
there is a LOT to be said about designed and manufactured locally. Its
more expensive but it does give you better control to more quickly
respond to problems. And I don't just mean "made in the USA" I mean
made where the design team is.

I'm not pulling the whole USA is better than anyone else in everything
garbage. I just feel that if the design team is in Germany that the
best place to make it is Germany if you want quality and the ability to
quickly respond to issues. Same holds true if a product is designed in
China.

~Brett

On Sun, 2010-02-14 at 11:48 -0500, S Sacco wrote:

> Hi Brett -
>
> I seriously think you're missing the point. The point was that other
> companies offer support, too, and they do. I agreed that Elecraft
> support is outstanding, so I'm pretty sure we're in agreement there.
>
> I note that you did not comment on the origin of the components inside
> the K3. ;-)
>
> While I like my K3's, I think you're romanticizing Elecraft. They're
> a for-profit business, and although staffed with passionate and highly
> talented people, I'm sure would close their doors if they could not
> turn a profit, which is entirely appropriate. I don't want anyone
> starving just to keep me happy - that would be Communism. Perhaps I'm
> alone in this regard, but I don't have an image in my mind of a wildly
> outnumbered band of Elecraftians ("Elecraftites"?) fighting valiantly
> on my behalf for all that's good and right and 10 dB better, versus
> the vastly larger, massed, swarming technical armies of YaeKenCom-Tec.
>
> Regarding me not being forced to purchase the K3. Brett, I've had
> this discussion MANY times, and have never once lost the argument. I
> was not, IMHO, particularly upstanding of Elecraft to publish a wildly
> optimistic release date, and then continue to publish wildly
> optimistic follow-on dates, most likely for the purpose of maintaining
> their existing orders, and attracting new ones. Wrong is just wrong,
> you know what I mean? Just because I could have chosen something else
> doesn't make what Elecraft did OK. Those, apparently like yourself,
> who have a lower threshold for what's ethical...that's your business,
> but that doesn't mean I have to agree, or lower MY standards, or not
> raise the issue when I feel it is appropriate. I sure hope they ship
> the P3 when they say they'll ship it. I may be wrong, but I think
> they did the same thing - strung out the release date - with the KRX3,
> didn't they?
>
> My goodness...I haven't said a peep in ages...yet, bewilderingly, you
> say: "someone who complains so much about the products you sure hang
> out here a lot. ". If, by "hang out here a lot", you mean "subscribe
> to the mailing list", then guilty as charged. I also subscribe to the
> k3 mailing list on Yahoo. Hope that's cool with you. :-)
>
> You're hardly "calling me out". (see above regarding the frequency
> of my posting).
>
> Sooo...the bottom line is that I think $700 is an awful lot of money
> for the P3, and I said so, and you don't think it's too much, and
> you've criticized me for expressing my opinion.
>
> Speaking of K3's, I have to finish putting one of mine back together.
> U1 on the DSP board burned out (thanks, Gary, for the fast support on
> that!) - but it shouldn't have (AF amplifiers are hardly high-tech).
> Originally, I ordered a new DSP board, but after a couple of week's
> waiting and no notice of shipping, I made an inquiry, only to find
> that they weren't in stock, and wouldn't be for a few more weeks.
> (Thanks Lisa for your help with that!). So, once again, we have
> great support on one hand, and a strange disconnect (no notification
> that the board wouldn't be available for awhile) on the other. I went
> to "Plan B", and had a friend of mine who has SMT experience and
> equipment, and he replaced the IC for me. I won't get the updates,
> but they're not that important to me.
>
> Take good care, Brett!
>
> 73,
> Steve NN4X
> EL98jh
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 3:59 AM, Brett Howard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hell Yaesu has a great website with lots of information. Try giving
> > them a call and getting them to help you debug an issue! Try emailing
> > a designer! If you think Microsoft and HP provides excellent support
> > of their products you have a low standard.
> >
> > As far as your K3 arriving later than you thought it would its not
> > like you were forced into waiting for it. If you wanted your money
> > back you'd have been handed all of your payment in full no questions
> > asked. EVERYONE who ordered a K3 that early KNEW that it was going to
> > take a long time. Mine took around 10 months to get from the time
> > that I ordered it. I knew it was going to take that long and hell
> > they didn't even take my money until they shipped it.
> >
> > The K3 was sold just in time and it was plenty ready as far as
> > hardware goes. The list of changes in the radio as far as hardware
> > are quite small. The changes are minor tweaks for the most part as
> > well! Heck some of them are even improvements that add features that
> > no one was even expecting (like the high RF protection mod).
> >
> > For someone who complains so much about the products you sure hang out
> > here a lot. If they were as bad as you like to let on one would think
> > you'd have gone somewhere else. I feel the fact that you stick around
> > and keep complaining undeniable proof that Elecraft does it better
> > than anyone else. That fact that you voted with your money and own
> > their products solidify it even further.
> >
> > I only feel the need to call you out on it because someone else coming
> > into this area who's not used to hearing you complain might get the
> > wrong idea and think that there is actually a problem with the way
> > Elecraft does business! When really its just that you like to get
> > your gripes heard early and often.
> >
> > ~Brett (KC7OTG)
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 7:38 PM, S Sacco <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> Brett -
> >>
> >> While we're thinking about stuff...where do you suppose most of the
> >> components inside the P3 were manufactured?
> >>
> >> Regarding support...I don't know...HP (hardware) and Microsoft (OS)
> >> seem to have pretty large websites with lots of information on
> >> them...and plenty of updates...especially Microsoft security patches
> >> that they so like to dump on us every few Tuesdays. :-)
> >>
> >> Yeah, Elecraft support is excellent, but the flip side is that the
> >> company has a tendency to sell products that are not quite ready yet.
> >> I know; my first K3 was delivered 9 months after it was first
> >> promised.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Brett Howard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>> All of that equipment was made by teams of Chinese people who are paid
> >>> very poorly and aren't treated all that well either. The P3 is a labor
> >>> of love put together by a select few engineers. Its probably built by
> >>> people in California with health coverage, life insurance, and a decent
> >>> living wage...
> >>>
> >>> Not to mention that Elecraft provides excellent support beyond that of
> >>> the sale! You're not going to get that from the company that made that
> >>> computer. You're not going to be informed of hardware modifications and
> >>> upgrades that will improve your system with well done step by step
> >>> documentation written up on how to perform the mods. Not to mention
> >>> that they'll even kit the parts to you if you can't find them on your
> >>> own. You get more than just the hardware for your 700 bucks!
> >>>
> >>> Just something to think about! Personally I see it as a little high but
> >>> still yet very fair!
> >>>
> >>> ~Brett (KC7OTG)
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >>
> >

S Sacco

Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

Brett -

You're drawing an arbitrary line in the sand.

Your original statement was " All of that equipment was made by teams
of Chinese people who are paid very poorly and aren't treated all that
well either."

My point was that the people churning out those chips probably fall
into the same category. But you knew that.

Regarding local design/support, I am "for" wherever I can get the best
team. Elecraft provides excellent support, and it's based in the
U.S., which is "local" for you and me, but maybe not so much for our
friends in other countries - but since it's so excellent, I don't
think they're complaining.

73,

Steve
NN4X

On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Brett Howard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sure I can comment on the origin of parts:
>
> There is nothing one can do about the origin of the parts... I work in
> the electronics design industry as well and there really is nothing you
> can build if you're only willing to use parts made in the USA. But
> there is a LOT to be said about designed and manufactured locally. Its
> more expensive but it does give you better control to more quickly
> respond to problems. And I don't just mean "made in the USA" I mean
> made where the design team is.
>
> I'm not pulling the whole USA is better than anyone else in everything
> garbage. I just feel that if the design team is in Germany that the
> best place to make it is Germany if you want quality and the ability to
> quickly respond to issues. Same holds true if a product is designed in
> China.
>
> ~Brett
>
> On Sun, 2010-02-14 at 11:48 -0500, S Sacco wrote:
>> Hi Brett -
>>
>> I seriously think you're missing the point. The point was that other
>> companies offer support, too, and they do. I agreed that Elecraft
>> support is outstanding, so I'm pretty sure we're in agreement there.
>>
>> I note that you did not comment on the origin of the components inside
>> the K3. ;-)
>>
>> While I like my K3's, I think you're romanticizing Elecraft. They're
>> a for-profit business, and although staffed with passionate and highly
>> talented people, I'm sure would close their doors if they could not
>> turn a profit, which is entirely appropriate. I don't want anyone
>> starving just to keep me happy - that would be Communism. Perhaps I'm
>> alone in this regard, but I don't have an image in my mind of a wildly
>> outnumbered band of Elecraftians ("Elecraftites"?) fighting valiantly
>> on my behalf for all that's good and right and 10 dB better, versus
>> the vastly larger, massed, swarming technical armies of YaeKenCom-Tec.
>>
>> Regarding me not being forced to purchase the K3. Brett, I've had
>> this discussion MANY times, and have never once lost the argument. I
>> was not, IMHO, particularly upstanding of Elecraft to publish a wildly
>> optimistic release date, and then continue to publish wildly
>> optimistic follow-on dates, most likely for the purpose of maintaining
>> their existing orders, and attracting new ones. Wrong is just wrong,
>> you know what I mean? Just because I could have chosen something else
>> doesn't make what Elecraft did OK. Those, apparently like yourself,
>> who have a lower threshold for what's ethical...that's your business,
>> but that doesn't mean I have to agree, or lower MY standards, or not
>> raise the issue when I feel it is appropriate. I sure hope they ship
>> the P3 when they say they'll ship it. I may be wrong, but I think
>> they did the same thing - strung out the release date - with the KRX3,
>> didn't they?
>>
>> My goodness...I haven't said a peep in ages...yet, bewilderingly, you
>> say: "someone who complains so much about the products you sure hang
>> out here a lot. ". If, by "hang out here a lot", you mean "subscribe
>> to the mailing list", then guilty as charged. I also subscribe to the
>> k3 mailing list on Yahoo. Hope that's cool with you. :-)
>>
>> You're hardly "calling me out". (see above regarding the frequency
>> of my posting).
>>
>> Sooo...the bottom line is that I think $700 is an awful lot of money
>> for the P3, and I said so, and you don't think it's too much, and
>> you've criticized me for expressing my opinion.
>>
>> Speaking of K3's, I have to finish putting one of mine back together.
>> U1 on the DSP board burned out (thanks, Gary, for the fast support on
>> that!) - but it shouldn't have (AF amplifiers are hardly high-tech).
>> Originally, I ordered a new DSP board, but after a couple of week's
>> waiting and no notice of shipping, I made an inquiry, only to find
>> that they weren't in stock, and wouldn't be for a few more weeks.
>> (Thanks Lisa for your help with that!). So, once again, we have
>> great support on one hand, and a strange disconnect (no notification
>> that the board wouldn't be available for awhile) on the other. I went
>> to "Plan B", and had a friend of mine who has SMT experience and
>> equipment, and he replaced the IC for me. I won't get the updates,
>> but they're not that important to me.
>>
>> Take good care, Brett!
>>
>> 73,
>> Steve NN4X
>> EL98jh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 3:59 AM, Brett Howard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > Hell Yaesu has a great website with lots of information. Try giving
>> > them a call and getting them to help you debug an issue! Try emailing
>> > a designer! If you think Microsoft and HP provides excellent support
>> > of their products you have a low standard.
>> >
>> > As far as your K3 arriving later than you thought it would its not
>> > like you were forced into waiting for it. If you wanted your money
>> > back you'd have been handed all of your payment in full no questions
>> > asked. EVERYONE who ordered a K3 that early KNEW that it was going to
>> > take a long time. Mine took around 10 months to get from the time
>> > that I ordered it. I knew it was going to take that long and hell
>> > they didn't even take my money until they shipped it.
>> >
>> > The K3 was sold just in time and it was plenty ready as far as
>> > hardware goes. The list of changes in the radio as far as hardware
>> > are quite small. The changes are minor tweaks for the most part as
>> > well! Heck some of them are even improvements that add features that
>> > no one was even expecting (like the high RF protection mod).
>> >
>> > For someone who complains so much about the products you sure hang out
>> > here a lot. If they were as bad as you like to let on one would think
>> > you'd have gone somewhere else. I feel the fact that you stick around
>> > and keep complaining undeniable proof that Elecraft does it better
>> > than anyone else. That fact that you voted with your money and own
>> > their products solidify it even further.
>> >
>> > I only feel the need to call you out on it because someone else coming
>> > into this area who's not used to hearing you complain might get the
>> > wrong idea and think that there is actually a problem with the way
>> > Elecraft does business! When really its just that you like to get
>> > your gripes heard early and often.
>> >
>> > ~Brett (KC7OTG)
>> >
>> > On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 7:38 PM, S Sacco <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> Brett -
>> >>
>> >> While we're thinking about stuff...where do you suppose most of the
>> >> components inside the P3 were manufactured?
>> >>
>> >> Regarding support...I don't know...HP (hardware) and Microsoft (OS)
>> >> seem to have pretty large websites with lots of information on
>> >> them...and plenty of updates...especially Microsoft security patches
>> >> that they so like to dump on us every few Tuesdays. :-)
>> >>
>> >> Yeah, Elecraft support is excellent, but the flip side is that the
>> >> company has a tendency to sell products that are not quite ready yet.
>> >> I know; my first K3 was delivered 9 months after it was first
>> >> promised.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Brett Howard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>> All of that equipment was made by teams of Chinese people who are paid
>> >>> very poorly and aren't treated all that well either. The P3 is a labor
>> >>> of love put together by a select few engineers. Its probably built by
>> >>> people in California with health coverage, life insurance, and a decent
>> >>> living wage...
>> >>>
>> >>> Not to mention that Elecraft provides excellent support beyond that of
>> >>> the sale! You're not going to get that from the company that made that
>> >>> computer. You're not going to be informed of hardware modifications and
>> >>> upgrades that will improve your system with well done step by step
>> >>> documentation written up on how to perform the mods. Not to mention
>> >>> that they'll even kit the parts to you if you can't find them on your
>> >>> own. You get more than just the hardware for your 700 bucks!
>> >>>
>> >>> Just something to think about! Personally I see it as a little high but
>> >>> still yet very fair!
>> >>>
>> >>> ~Brett (KC7OTG)
>> >> ______________________________________________________________
>> >> Elecraft mailing list
>> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>> >>
>> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> >>
>> >
>
>
>

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

Administrator

Gentlemen - Let's end this OT part of the thread and take it to direct
email.

(Also, as a general note to everyone, please stop copying 100% of prior
posts in each reply. It clogs the reflector and digests. And it makes it
painful to read for those of us reading email using PDAs like the
Motorola Droid.)

73,
Eric WA6HHQ
Elecraft List Moderator
-----

S Sacco wrote:

> Brett -
>
> You're drawing an arbitrary line in the sand.
>
> Your original statement was " All of that equipment was made by teams
> of Chinese people who are paid very poorly and aren't treated all that
> well either."
>
> My point was that the people churning out those chips probably fall
> into the same category. But you knew that.

_..._

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Alan Bloom-2

Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

In reply to this post by Phil Hystad

The P3 will be available as a "no solder" kit like the K3 as well as an
assembled unit.

Alan N1AL

On Sat, 2010-02-13 at 17:32 -0800, Phil Hystad wrote:

> Does anyone know if this is a kit (likely a simple kit?) or something that is all ready to be plugged in and used?
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Brett Howard

Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

You've got that bugger running fast! Good on ya! Now I just hope with
all hope that I can get one in my hands before FD!

~Brett (KC7OTG)

On Sun, 2010-02-14 at 21:47 -0800, Alan Bloom wrote:

> The P3 will be available as a "no solder" kit like the K3 as well as an
> assembled unit.
>
> Alan N1AL
>
> On Sat, 2010-02-13 at 17:32 -0800, Phil Hystad wrote:
> > Does anyone know if this is a kit (likely a simple kit?) or something that is all ready to be plugged in and used?
> >
> > 73, phil, K7PEH
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Alan Bloom-2

Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

In reply to this post by Brett Howard

On Sat, 2010-02-13 at 17:18 -0800, Brett Howard wrote:
> I'm waiting for someone to take a VIDEO so that we can see the refresh
> rate of the thing....

Currently about 20 Hz (50 ms).

> But from the sounds of it it sounds like there
> are still a lot of optimizations that are going on to attempt to improve
> that refresh rate...

There's room for further optimization, but frankly even 20 Hz is
starting to get a little too fast IMHO. At some point the spectrum
trace is changing so fast it starts to look fuzzy. Also a slower trace
gives a longer history on the waterfall display.

Alan N1AL

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Brett Howard

Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

The Agilent MXA's tout their speep speed... You can easily get them
upwards of around 30 to 40+ sweeps/sec. ;)

~Brett

On Sun, 2010-02-14 at 21:50 -0800, Alan Bloom wrote:

> On Sat, 2010-02-13 at 17:18 -0800, Brett Howard wrote:
> > I'm waiting for someone to take a VIDEO so that we can see the refresh
> > rate of the thing....
>
> Currently about 20 Hz (50 ms).
>
> > But from the sounds of it it sounds like there
> > are still a lot of optimizations that are going on to attempt to improve
> > that refresh rate...
>
> There's room for further optimization, but frankly even 20 Hz is
> starting to get a little too fast IMHO. At some point the spectrum
> trace is changing so fast it starts to look fuzzy. Also a slower trace
> gives a longer history on the waterfall display.
>
> Alan N1AL
>
>

Larry - K2GN

I'm having a bad day.

In reply to this post by Dave Quick - KØEKL-2

Things aren't going well today, so I may as well voice my opinon here.
FLAME SUIT ON! BLAST AWAY.

I own K3, S/N 3278. Purchased it before I joined the reflector.
I was told that the radio, the support and the reflector were top notch.
Well, 2 out of 3 isn't bad in most cases.
But when there is development going on regarding the Elecraft products,
I WANT TO HEAD ABOUT ELECRAFT!!
Not Kenwood, not Yaesu, not Ten-Tec not ICOM,
Not LP-PAN, not softrock, ETC ETC ETC.
There is no doubt in my mind that I have missed some very good information
about Elecraft.
Directly because of the quanity of other products taking up so much of the
reflector space.
Those other products have their reflectors and merits, etc..
If I want to read about them, I can go there.

PLEASE LET'S GET BACK ON TRACK.

Let me answer a bunch of question with this statement -
Elecraft products are designed and operate the way that Elecraft wanted them
to.
If they want any of those other products they could have openned a radio
supply store!!!

de K2GN
K3 S/N 3278

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Ken Kopp-3

Re: I'm having a bad day.

Hello Larry,

No, you've seen same the posts to the reflector as the rest of us.
The number of posts about non-Elecraft radios haven't in any way
reduced the number of Elecraft-related posts. You haven't missed
anything, unless you've chosen not to read something.

LP-PAN and Softrock subjects -are- important to a large number
of Elecraft owners.

73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
K2 #5665
K3 #56
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1234