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For you Anti-Scopes

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Steve Ellington

For you Anti-Scopes

My 19" monitor is showing a cw segment of 40 meters in the early afternoon. I see 4 active cw signals.
Tell me....What would be the odds of finding those signals by tuning across the band with a knob?

You would miss hearing the signal if:
1. As you tuned across his frequency, he paused and you didn't hear him.
2. As you tuned across his frequency, he turned it over to the other guy who is too weak to hear.
3. His cw speed is so slow that you tuned across his frequency in between characters.
4. He ended his CQ before you tuned to his frequency.
5. His singnal faded into the noise right when you were tuning through his frequency.
6. You heard a beep as you tuned but now you can't find where he was.
7. He started calling CQ right as you tuned past his frequency.

Once you've had a bandscope, it's hard to live without it.
See it in action: http://n4lq.webs.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=8215456

Steve
N4LQ
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n7ws

Re: For you Anti-Scopes

How did we ever find each other before all of this computer stuff?

I mean I had only 250 or so countries confirmed using paper and pencil logs and the only computer I was familiar with was an HP9000 series at work running HP Basic (with 250K of RAM!).

--- On Tue, 2/16/10, Steve Ellington <[hidden email]> wrote:

My 19" monitor is showing a cw segment of 40 meters in the early afternoon. I see 4 active cw signals.
Tell me....What would be the odds of finding those signals by tuning across the band with a knob?

You would miss hearing the signal if:
1. As you tuned across his frequency, he paused and you didn't hear him.
2. As you tuned across his frequency, he turned it over to the other guy who is too weak to hear.
3. His cw speed is so slow that you tuned across his frequency in between characters.
4. He ended his CQ before you tuned to his frequency.
5. His singnal faded into the noise right when you were tuning through his frequency.
6. You heard a beep as you tuned but now you can't find where he was.
7. He started calling CQ right as you tuned past his frequency.

Once you've had a bandscope, it's hard to live without it.
See it in action: http://n4lq.webs.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=8215456

Steve
N4LQ

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Kevin Rock

Re: For you Anti-Scopes

In reply to this post by Steve Ellington

My first thought after I read the subject line was, "Why is he bringing up the Monkey trial?" I never once thought of a computerized gadget. I guess having numbers on a dial is kind of neat but unnecessary to communications :) Kind of like fishing: do you really want to know where all the fish are? Do you want to catch ALL the fish? Or do you just want to go fishing?
Kevin. KD5ONS

-----Original Message-----

>From: Wes Stewart <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Feb 16, 2010 5:13 PM
>To: [hidden email], Steve Ellington <[hidden email]>
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] For you Anti-Scopes
>
>How did we ever find each other before all of this computer stuff?
>
>I mean I had only 250 or so countries confirmed using paper and pencil logs and the only computer I was familiar with was an HP9000 series at work running HP Basic (with 250K of RAM!).
>
>--- On Tue, 2/16/10, Steve Ellington <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>My 19" monitor is showing a cw segment of 40 meters in the early afternoon. I see 4 active cw signals.
>Tell me....What would be the odds of finding those signals by tuning across the band with a knob?
>
>You would miss hearing the signal if:
>1. As you tuned across his frequency, he paused and you didn't hear him.
>2. As you tuned across his frequency, he turned it over to the other guy who is too weak to hear.
>3. His cw speed is so slow that you tuned across his frequency in between characters.
>4. He ended his CQ before you tuned to his frequency.
>5. His singnal faded into the noise right when you were tuning through his frequency.
>6. You heard a beep as you tuned but now you can't find where he was.
>7. He started calling CQ right as you tuned past his frequency.
>
>Once you've had a bandscope, it's hard to live without it.
>See it in action: http://n4lq.webs.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=8215456
>
>Steve
>N4LQ
>
>
>
>
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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Ken Alexander-2

Re: For you Anti-Scopes

In reply to this post by Steve Ellington

Oh my goodness!

What are we talking here for a P3, somewhere around $700? I'm supposed to spend that kind of money to find people on 40 metres in the early afternoon? It's cheaper to tune through the band with a wide filter selected. And if I miss someone, good heavens, is it really the end of the world? If I'm looking for DX it's easier and cheaper to check a DX cluster.

A scope might be handy in contests, so that makes it useful to me maybe 6 to 8 weekends a year. No sale there either.

This afternoon I could hear the 1 watt signal from the NCDXF 20m beacon in Hawaii. I could also hear (weakly) the 100 mW signal from the NCDXF beacon in South Africa with my K2 and a vertical...so you can probably guess my opinion on amplifiers.

73,

Ken Alexander
VE3HLS

--- On Wed, 2/17/10, Steve Ellington <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Steve Ellington <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Elecraft] For you Anti-Scopes
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 12:35 AM
> My 19" monitor is showing a cw
> segment of 40 meters in the early afternoon. I see 4 active
> cw signals.
> Tell me....What would be the odds of finding those signals
> by tuning across the band with a knob?
>
> You would miss hearing the signal if:
> 1. As you tuned across his frequency, he paused and you
> didn't hear him.
> 2. As you tuned across his frequency, he turned it over to
> the other guy who is too weak to hear.
> 3. His cw speed is so slow that you tuned across his
> frequency in between characters.
> 4. He ended his CQ before you tuned to his frequency.
> 5. His singnal faded into the noise right when you were
> tuning through his frequency.
> 6. You heard a beep as you tuned but now you can't find
> where he was.
> 7. He started calling CQ right as you tuned past his
> frequency.
>
> Once you've had a bandscope, it's hard to live without it.
>
> See it in action: http://n4lq.webs.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=8215456
>
> Steve
> N4LQ
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Bob - W0GI

Re: For you Anti-Scopes

In reply to this post by Steve Ellington

After feeding the K3 IF through LP-Pan, then to PowerSDR-IF and CW Skimmer, you don't have to convince me.

As a matter of fact, I am pretty blown away by how everything goes together so well. With LP-Bridge running the K3 RS232 management, I don't even have to worry about shutting one program down to start another. PowerSDR-IF, HRD, Skimmer, K3_EZ, and K3_Util are all assigned to virtual com ports, and you can run them simultaneously if you want.

My favorite is CW Skimmer. With the "Audio IF" setting at -4174, I click on a text of a signal, and it tunes the K3 to zero beat on that frequency. Ready contact that station instantly. It just doesn't get much better then that. :>)

I have a 22" monitor and an Intel i7 quad core, so no problem with CPU.

Those $10-12K radios can't hold a candle to this setup. And it is not that expensive.

Buck - k4ia

Re: For you Anti-Scopes

In reply to this post by Ken Alexander-2

I have gotten totally hooked on my LP Pan and CW Skimmer. I can't
imagine operating without them.

Craig Buck

On Feb 16, 2010, at 8:35 PM, Ken Alexander <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Oh my goodness!
>
> What are we talking here for a P3, somewhere around $700? I'm
> supposed to spend that kind of money to find people on 40 metres in
> the early afternoon? It's cheaper to tune through the band with a
> wide filter selected. And if I miss someone, good heavens, is it
> really the end of the world? If I'm looking for DX it's easier and
> cheaper to check a DX cluster.
>
> A scope might be handy in contests, so that makes it useful to me
> maybe 6 to 8 weekends a year. No sale there either.
>
> This afternoon I could hear the 1 watt signal from the NCDXF 20m
> beacon in Hawaii. I could also hear (weakly) the 100 mW signal from
> the NCDXF beacon in South Africa with my K2 and a vertical...so you
> can probably guess my opinion on amplifiers.
>
> 73,
>
> Ken Alexander
> VE3HLS
>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 2/17/10, Steve Ellington <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> From: Steve Ellington <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: [Elecraft] For you Anti-Scopes
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 12:35 AM
>> My 19" monitor is showing a cw
>> segment of 40 meters in the early afternoon. I see 4 active
>> cw signals.
>> Tell me....What would be the odds of finding those signals
>> by tuning across the band with a knob?
>>
>> You would miss hearing the signal if:
>> 1. As you tuned across his frequency, he paused and you
>> didn't hear him.
>> 2. As you tuned across his frequency, he turned it over to
>> the other guy who is too weak to hear.
>> 3. His cw speed is so slow that you tuned across his
>> frequency in between characters.
>> 4. He ended his CQ before you tuned to his frequency.
>> 5. His singnal faded into the noise right when you were
>> tuning through his frequency.
>> 6. You heard a beep as you tuned but now you can't find
>> where he was.
>> 7. He started calling CQ right as you tuned past his
>> frequency.
>>
>> Once you've had a bandscope, it's hard to live without it.
>>
>> See it in action: http://n4lq.webs.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=8215456
>>
>> Steve
>> N4LQ
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Bob - W0GI

Re: For you Anti-Scopes

In reply to this post by n7ws

<<<<<<<<<< How did we ever find each other before all of this computer stuff? >>>>>>>>>>

You don't need it at all, but it is nice. I am tuned on 40 right now, and just brought up the callsign screen on CW Skimmer. I have a list of 30 callsigns that are in CW QSOs right now. It would take a while to do that by tuning up and down. and waiting for each "xxxx de xxxx".

I have been doing it without a computer for 35 years or so, and will continue doing it that way at times, but there is nothing wrong with using tools that are available, and CW Skimmer is a great tool.

As for expense, I got an LP-Pan off of EBay for $135, and it goes to a PC and Soundcard I already had. The best $135 I have spent for a while.

Phil Hystad

Re: For you Anti-Scopes

In reply to this post by Ken Alexander-2

On Feb 16, 2010, at 5:35 PM, Ken Alexander wrote:

> Oh my goodness!
>
> What are we talking here for a P3, somewhere around $700? I'm supposed to spend that kind of money to find people on 40 metres in the early afternoon? It's cheaper to tune through the band with a wide filter selected. And if I miss someone, good heavens, is it really the end of the world? If I'm looking for DX it's easier and cheaper to check a DX cluster.
>

I think you might be overlooking the "toy" factor of owning the P3. I think it is a cool and neat toy so I am buying one.

73, phil, K7PEH
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Ken Alexander-2

Re: For you Anti-Scopes

I suspect the toy factor will be responsible for the majority of P3 purchases! 8-)

73,

Ken Alexander
VE3HLS

--- On Wed, 2/17/10, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think you might be overlooking the "toy" factor of owning
> the P3. I think it is a cool and neat toy so I am
> buying one.
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH

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Kevin Rock

Re: For you Anti-Scopes

In reply to this post by Steve Ellington

So this whole Scopes thing has nothing to do with monkeys and evolution?
Kevin.

-----Original Message-----

>From: Ken Alexander <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Feb 16, 2010 6:40 PM
>To: Phil Hystad <[hidden email]>
>Cc: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] For you Anti-Scopes
>
>I suspect the toy factor will be responsible for the majority of P3 purchases! 8-)
>
>73,
>
>Ken Alexander
>VE3HLS
>
>
>
>--- On Wed, 2/17/10, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I think you might be overlooking the "toy" factor of owning
>> the P3. I think it is a cool and neat toy so I am
>> buying one.
>>
>> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

KARL MARDERIAN

Re: For you Anti-Scopes

I tell all you sinners out there in radio land, You will be buying five tube Halicrafters and you will Inherited the wind.
N6XVT

On Feb 16, 2010, at 6:45 PM, Kevin Rock wrote:

> So this whole Scopes thing has nothing to do with monkeys and evolution?
> Kevin.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ken Alexander <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Feb 16, 2010 6:40 PM
>> To: Phil Hystad <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] For you Anti-Scopes
>>
>> I suspect the toy factor will be responsible for the majority of P3 purchases! 8-)
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Ken Alexander
>> VE3HLS
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Wed, 2/17/10, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> I think you might be overlooking the "toy" factor of owning
>>> the P3. I think it is a cool and neat toy so I am
>>> buying one.
>>>
>>> 73, phil, K7PEH
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Bob - W0GI

Re: For you Anti-Scopes

Halicrafters ????

My Drake TR-4C has the best SSB audio in the world, but it can't save me. :<{

KARL MARDERIAN

Re: For you Anti-Scopes

The humor Bob is not in radio, There is a book called " To Inherit The Wind", its is about the Scopes ( if sp correct ) Monkey trails. About teaching Evolution in public schools.
N6XVT
On Feb 16, 2010, at 9:04 PM, Bob - W0GI wrote:

>
> Halicrafters ????
>
> My Drake TR-4C has the best SSB audio in the world, but it can't save me.
> :<{
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/For-you-Anti-Scopes-tp4583569p4584423.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Julian, G4ILO

Re: For you Anti-Scopes

In reply to this post by Bob - W0GI

Bob - W0GI wrote

After feeding the K3 IF through LP-Pan, then to PowerSDR-IF and CW Skimmer, you don't have to convince me.

...

My favorite is CW Skimmer. With the "Audio IF" setting at -4174, I click on a text of a signal, and it tunes the K3 to zero beat on that frequency. Ready contact that station instantly. It just doesn't get much better then that. :>)

I don't know. Someone could write a bit of software to actually reply to the station and make the contact saving you the bother. Wouldn't that be even better? :P)

Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222 KX3 #110
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
* KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
* KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html

w7aqk

Re: OT- For you Anti-Scopes

In reply to this post by KARL MARDERIAN

And, it became one of the great movies of all times IMHO. Starring Spencer
Tracy and Frederic March, with Gene Kelly in a strong supporting role.
Terrific performances all around. The movie was just called "Inherit The
Wind" -- Guess they dropped the "To" if that's what the book was titled.

Dave W7AQK

----- Original Message -----
From: "KARL MARDERIAN" <[hidden email]>
To: "Bob - W0GI" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 11:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] For you Anti-Scopes

> The humor Bob is not in radio, There is a book called " To Inherit The
> Wind", its is about the Scopes ( if sp correct ) Monkey trails. About
> teaching Evolution in public schools.
> N6XVT
> On Feb 16, 2010, at 9:04 PM, Bob - W0GI wrote:
>
>>
>> Halicrafters ????
>>
>> My Drake TR-4C has the best SSB audio in the world, but it can't save me.
>> :<{
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://n2.nabble.com/For-you-Anti-Scopes-tp4583569p4584423.html
>> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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drewko

Re: For you Anti-Scopes

In reply to this post by Steve Ellington

I'm not "anit-scope"; just don't think I can justify the cost based
upon my casual operating style. Certainly I would like to have one to
play around with, I just don't want to pay for it...

For the scenarios you listed below I think a non-scope K3 could be
much improved if it had a wider bandpass and more sophisticated
scanner.

Although I operate almost entirely in CW my bandpass is typically set
wide open. However, this is effectively only aout 2 KHz max, which is
not nearly wide enough when you want to hear what is going on around
you on the band.

As for the K3 scanner, it is rudimentary and of very limited
usefulness. It has a few one-size-fits-all scanning rates, which never
seem to be exactly appropriate (depending on how much territory you
want to cover). Also the dwell time for squelched scanning is, as far
as I can tell, completely random: sometimes it stops for a fraction of
a second, sometimes for many seconds.

The scanner would be much more useful if it had a user variable
scanning rate (perhaps implemented in some way with the VFO B knob or
RIT control), so that one could smoothly vary the rate while the
receiver is scanning. Same goes for a user controllable dwell time.
But I suppose few K3 owners have even tried the scanner, so there
probably isn't much call to improve it.

73,
Drew
AF2Z

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:35:50 -0500, Steve N4LQ wrote:

>My 19" monitor is showing a cw segment of 40 meters in the early afternoon. I see 4 active cw signals.
>Tell me....What would be the odds of finding those signals by tuning across the band with a knob?
>
>You would miss hearing the signal if:
>1. As you tuned across his frequency, he paused and you didn't hear him.
>2. As you tuned across his frequency, he turned it over to the other guy who is too weak to hear.
>3. His cw speed is so slow that you tuned across his frequency in between characters.
>4. He ended his CQ before you tuned to his frequency.
>5. His singnal faded into the noise right when you were tuning through his frequency.
>6. You heard a beep as you tuned but now you can't find where he was.
>7. He started calling CQ right as you tuned past his frequency.
>
>Once you've had a bandscope, it's hard to live without it.
>See it in action: http://n4lq.webs.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=8215456
>
>Steve
>N4LQ

Julius Fazekas n2wn

Re: For you Anti-Scopes

In reply to this post by Steve Ellington

I'd be more impressed if it made a hole on 20M on Saturday during CQWWDX Steve

Scopes are nice tools, but "must have" is open to debate. Part of the fun of radio is tuning across the band and finding something on your own, before it's spotted...

A better question, from my perspective, is how many "new" blips can it pick out when the band is packed from 14000 to 14130 with layers of CW signals, like during CQWWDX.

73,
Julius

Julius Fazekas
N2WN

Tennessee Contest Group
http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html

Tennessee QSO Party
http://www.tnqp.org/

Elecraft K2 #4455
Elecraft K3/100 #366
Elecraft K3/100

Bob - W0GI

Re: For you Anti-Scopes

In reply to this post by Julian, G4ILO

I actually like sending with the paddles, but using the VFO knob isn't that exciting. If I see a CQ on CW Skimmer, I can click on the text, and it tunes the K3 zero beat on that signal. Or I can turn the vfo knob then spot the signal, using up time for no purpose. Why not use a tuning aid?

I like tuning the bands just like anyone else, and it is still a great way to operate. With the K1, it is the only way, and with the wide vfo range, I can get a lot of practice using the knob.

If I want to work a lot of stations, I can work more using the skimmer.

I don't understand some of the resistance to tools like band-scopes and skimmers? Should we go back to separate transmitters and receivers with a one rate vfo? Get rid of antenna tuners, and go outside to retune our antennas when we want to QSY? I'm sure there are plenty of hams with boat anchors that will tell you how they don't need a K3 or any rig made after 1965. :>)

I do understand those that say you don't need it, because you really don't need it. But at the same time, if you do use the tools, I don't see it as a bad thing. They are just tools.

Turning the knobs or clicking a mouse gets us to the same place. Have fun and make contacts.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I don't know. Someone could write a bit of software to actually reply to the station and make the contact saving you the bother. Wouldn't that be even better? :P)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: For you Anti-Scopes

Administrator

In reply to this post by Ken Alexander-2

Also note that the P3 provides a buffered K3 If feedthrough to drive
other PC apps like Skimmer, PowerSDR etc.

73, Eric WA6HHQ
----

On 2/16/2010 6:40 PM, Ken Alexander wrote:

> I suspect the toy factor will be responsible for the majority of P3 purchases! 8-)
>
> 73,
>
> Ken Alexander
> VE3HLS
>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 2/17/10, Phil Hystad<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>> I think you might be overlooking the "toy" factor of owning
>> the P3. I think it is a cool and neat toy so I am
>> buying one.
>>
>> 73, phil, K7PEH
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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Julian, G4ILO

Re: For you Anti-Scopes

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft wrote

Also note that the P3 provides a buffered K3 If feedthrough to drive
other PC apps like Skimmer, PowerSDR etc.

But you would still need a SoftRock, LP-Pan or whatever to make sense of it. Pity it doesn't provide an I/Q output, then you would just need a sound card. Presumably it must produce the I/Q data internally, so wouldn't that be possible?

Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222 KX3 #110
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
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