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Fwd: New Sherwood report

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Ed Schuller

Fwd: New Sherwood report

http://www.sherweng.com/table.html

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Fwd: New Sherwood report

Interesting ... why does Rob put the FT-5000 above the K3?

2 KHz IMDDR are the same (101 dB) ... FT-5000 filter ultimate
rejection is *poorer* than the K3, LO noise is *poorer* than
the K3, 100 KHz blocking is *poorer* than the K3. Sensitivity
and noise floor are comparable depending on which preamp is
active on each radio ... with no preamp the K3 has a lower
noise floor and greater sensitivity.

Maybe I'm biased but I would still rate the K3 numero uno ..

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 12/1/2010 2:59 PM, Ed Schuller wrote:

>
>
>
> http://www.sherweng.com/table.html
>
>
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wayne burdick

Re: Fwd: New Sherwood report

Administrator

In reply to this post by Ed Schuller

Pretty close to a dead heat between the K3 and the FT5000, except for blocking dynamic range (K3 is better by 13 dB) and filter ultimate attenuation (K3 is better by 15 dB).

Not bad for a 9-pound rig that starts at $1400.

That said, I will now disqualify myself from the rest of this thread :)

73,
Wayne
N6KR

Ed wrote:

> http://www.sherweng.com/table.html
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AD4C2009

Re: Fwd: New Sherwood report

Yes Wayne,not bad for a medium size radio that weighting just 9 pounds can be carried anywhere in a small bag instead of that monster yaesu that weights a lot and its not good to be transported to a dxpedition.

Hector
AD4C
K3 # 2194 that was already in a dxpedition

"If freedom means something,it is the right to tell others what they don't want to hear" –George Orwell

--- On Wed, 12/1/10, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: New Sherwood report
To: "Ed Schuller" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 9:18 PM

Pretty close to a dead heat between the K3 and the FT5000, except for blocking dynamic range (K3 is better by 13 dB) and filter ultimate attenuation (K3 is better by 15 dB).

Not bad for a 9-pound rig that starts at $1400.

That said, I will now disqualify myself from the rest of this thread :)

73,
Wayne
N6KR

Ed wrote:

> http://www.sherweng.com/table.html
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KENT TRIMBLE

Re: Fwd: New Sherwood report

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

I agree.

Where is the edging out?

Sherwood sorts on Dynamic Range-Narrow Spaced, and both rigs are 101db
at 2 Kcs.

I'm confused by Bob's statement that it "edges out" the K3.

If you take the other parameters into consideration, the K3 should be
listed first and the 5000 listed second.

73,

Kent K9ZTV

On 12/1/2010 3:18 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Pretty close to a dead heat between the K3 and the FT5000, except for blocking dynamic range (K3 is better by 13 dB) and filter ultimate attenuation (K3 is better by 15 dB).
>
> Not bad for a 9-pound rig that starts at $1400.
>
> That said, I will now disqualify myself from the rest of this thread :)
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
> Ed wrote:
>
>> http://www.sherweng.com/table.html
> ______________________________________________________________
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>

Nate Bargmann

Re: Fwd: New Sherwood report

In reply to this post by Ed Schuller

* On 2010 01 Dec 16:19 -0600, Ed Schuller wrote:
>
>
>
> http://www.sherweng.com/table.html

I understand that Sherwood places a lot of emphasis on 2 kHz BDR. While
that is a worthwhile measurement, I am concerned more about the Filter
Ultimate (dB) column. Not only being 15 dB poorer than than the K3, note
also that the FT-5000 is phase limited in this regard. It will take
someone more educated than I to tell us what that means in practical
terms, but it is one glaring difference between two radios that appear
to be almost identical. Also, the FT-5000 being 13 dB poorer in the 100
kHz BDR column is also glaring and perhaps telling.

Given the recent discussion on the FT-5000's transmitted phase noise, it
would be nice to see if Bob could provide some independent testing of
transmitters as well.

At the end of the day it would appear that the Yaesu engineers have done
their homework in some areas but left room for improvement.

73, de Nate >>

P.S. My K3 is staying put. :-)

--

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://n0nb.us/index.html
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Bill W4ZV

Re: Fwd: New Sherwood report

In reply to this post by KENT TRIMBLE

k9ztv wrote

I agree.

Where is the edging out?

Sherwood sorts on Dynamic Range-Narrow Spaced, and both rigs are 101db
at 2 Kcs.

I'm confused by Bob's statement that it "edges out" the K3.

The nominal filter bandwidth for all (un-footnoted) 2 kHz measurements is 500 Hz, or the closest filter to 500 Hz. This has been the standard used by ARRL, Radcom and Sherwood for many years.

At this bandwidth the K3 has 95 dB IMDDR3 using its 5-pole 500 Hz filter. Inrad's 8-pole 500 might be a dB closer, like the 96 dB listed for the 8-pole 400 Hz. The 5000 measurement is apparently using their 600 Hz roofing filter and a DSP BW of 500 Hz, so indeed it does "edge out" the K3 when using comparable filters. In other words, it achieves 101 dB with a 600 Hz roofing filter and the K3 achieves 101 dB using the 200 Hz 5-pole.

73, Bill

Kok Chen

Re: Fwd: New Sherwood report

In reply to this post by KENT TRIMBLE

On Dec 1, 2010, at 2:26 PM, K9ZTV wrote:

> Sherwood sorts on Dynamic Range-Narrow Spaced, and both rigs are 101db at 2 Kcs.

If I correctly grok Rob's numbers, the K3 requires the use of a very narrow roofing filter (200 Hz) to attain the 101 dB of dynamic range (i.e., the two "beating" carriers are far away from the passband that the I.F. amplifier, the 2nd Mixer and the DSP codec sees).

>From Rob's table, the K3's 2 kHz dynamic range degrades by 6 dB when you go from a 200 Hz roofing filter to a 500 Hz roofing filter.

For a digital mode op, the difference can actually be quite large, and not simply a case of "edging out."

73
Chen, W7AY

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David Gilbert

Re: Fwd: New Sherwood report

In reply to this post by Nate Bargmann

A good start would be for someone ... hello ARRL? ... to document key
clicks. A lot of good it does for me to have a rig with excellent 2 KHz
BDR only to have everything ruined by key clicks from some Yaesu rig
that neither the manufacturer nor the operator will fix.

Dave AB7E

On 12/1/2010 3:48 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote:
>
> Given the recent discussion on the FT-5000's transmitted phase noise, it
> would be nice to see if Bob could provide some independent testing of
> transmitters as well.
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Fwd: New Sherwood report

In reply to this post by Nate Bargmann

> Given the recent discussion on the FT-5000's transmitted phase noise,
> it would be nice to see if Bob could provide some independent testing
> of transmitters as well.

Sherwood's testing already contains the necessary information on phase
noise ... see the LO noise column. From the list, no synthesized
transceiver (Perseus is a receiver only) comes anywhere near close to
the K3.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 12/1/2010 5:48 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote:

> * On 2010 01 Dec 16:19 -0600, Ed Schuller wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.sherweng.com/table.html
>
> I understand that Sherwood places a lot of emphasis on 2 kHz BDR. While
> that is a worthwhile measurement, I am concerned more about the Filter
> Ultimate (dB) column. Not only being 15 dB poorer than than the K3, note
> also that the FT-5000 is phase limited in this regard. It will take
> someone more educated than I to tell us what that means in practical
> terms, but it is one glaring difference between two radios that appear
> to be almost identical. Also, the FT-5000 being 13 dB poorer in the 100
> kHz BDR column is also glaring and perhaps telling.
>
> Given the recent discussion on the FT-5000's transmitted phase noise, it
> would be nice to see if Bob could provide some independent testing of
> transmitters as well.
>
> At the end of the day it would appear that the Yaesu engineers have done
> their homework in some areas but left room for improvement.
>
> 73, de Nate>>
>
> P.S. My K3 is staying put. :-)
>

Jim Sheldon

Re: Fwd: New Sherwood report

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

What Wayne should have said, "Not bad for a 9-pound rig, designed and made in America, by an American company, that starts at $1400.

W0EB

> Pretty close to a dead heat between the K3 and the FT5000, except
> for blocking dynamic range (K3 is better by 13 dB) and filter
> ultimate attenuation (K3 is better by 15 dB).
>
> Not bad for a 9-pound rig that starts at $1400.
>
> That said, I will now disqualify myself from the rest of this
> thread :)
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>

Vic K2VCO

Re: Fwd: New Sherwood report

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

ARRL does include an oscillograph of a 60 wpm dit as well as a graph of the composite
noise spectrum of the transmitted CW signal. But the average ham doesn't look carefully at
this, or understand it.

In my opinion, they should develop a standard way of specifying the bandwidth consumed by
a keyed CW signal, expressed as a single number. Then you could compare transmitters and
something problematic like the FT-1000 would stand out.

On 12/1/2010 3:37 PM, David Gilbert wrote:

>
>
> A good start would be for someone ... hello ARRL? ... to document key
> clicks. A lot of good it does for me to have a rig with excellent 2 KHz
> BDR only to have everything ruined by key clicks from some Yaesu rig
> that neither the manufacturer nor the operator will fix.
>
> Dave AB7E
>
>
>
> On 12/1/2010 3:48 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote:
>>
>> Given the recent discussion on the FT-5000's transmitted phase noise, it
>> would be nice to see if Bob could provide some independent testing of
>> transmitters as well.
> ______________________________________________________________
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--
Vic
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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: Fwd: New Sherwood report

Administrator

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

They already have - See the keying bandwidth spectral plots in the ARRL
reviews. The FT-5000 is considerably wider than the K3.

73, Eric WA6HHQ
---

On 12/1/2010 3:37 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
>
> A good start would be for someone ... hello ARRL? ... to document key
> clicks. A lot of good it does for me to have a rig with excellent 2 KHz
> BDR only to have everything ruined by key clicks from some Yaesu rig
> that neither the manufacturer nor the operator will fix.
>
> Dave AB7E
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Steve Ellington

Re: Fwd: New Sherwood report

Wouldn't having bad key clicks be an advantage in a contest?

Steve N4LQ

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft" <[hidden email]>
To: "David Gilbert" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: New Sherwood report

> They already have - See the keying bandwidth spectral plots in the ARRL
> reviews. The FT-5000 is considerably wider than the K3.
>
> 73, Eric WA6HHQ
> ---
>
> On 12/1/2010 3:37 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
>>
>> A good start would be for someone ... hello ARRL? ... to document key
>> clicks. A lot of good it does for me to have a rig with excellent 2 KHz
>> BDR only to have everything ruined by key clicks from some Yaesu rig
>> that neither the manufacturer nor the operator will fix.
>>
>> Dave AB7E
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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Barry N1EU

Re: Fwd: New Sherwood report

In reply to this post by Vic K2VCO

Vic K2VCO wrote

ARRL does include an oscillograph of a 60 wpm dit as well as a graph of the composite
noise spectrum of the transmitted CW signal.

Yeah, but at what rig settings?

It's absolutely amazing, after years of Yaesu being called out and doing nothing about key clicks in their rigs, that they would bring out a radio (FT-5000) and provide the user the ability to reduce the cw rise-time to 1 msec (menu mode, cw group, 063 A1A Shape). Just incredible. And they also recommend that users reduce the rise-time from the default 4 msec to improve qsk performance. Why is this even legal?

73, Barry N1EU

Ken Alexander-2

Re: Fwd: New Sherwood report

In reply to this post by Steve Ellington

Only if someone thinks that annoying everyone around them is the route to success...

73,

Ken Alexander
VE3HLS

> Wouldn't having bad key clicks be an advantage in a contest?
>
> Steve N4LQ

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juergen piezo

Re: Fwd: New Sherwood report

In reply to this post by KENT TRIMBLE

Hi Ken

The Ft5000 has better PA than the K3. Its IMD performance is way superior to the K3 especially on the higher bands and 6 meters. It smacks of double standards harping on about Yaesu Keyclicks and ignoring SSB transmitter IMD especially on the K3 when it is so marginal.

Unnecessary wide transmission on any mode is bad for all of us.
The key click issue and SSB IMD issue has same bad effect.
Its wise not to throw stones in glass houses.

I wish Elecraft would release a better PA using fets for the K3.

The Yaesu FT5000 certainly has a better PA than the K3.

The Ft5000 has superb transmitter IMD, far superior to the K3's transmitter.

I find it interesting that so many observers harp endlessly about the Yaesu
Keyclick problems and totally ignore the issue of the K3's poor SSB IMD.

The Yaesu Ft5000 has the edge in this department.

73
John
--- On Wed, 12/1/10, K9ZTV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: K9ZTV <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: New Sherwood report
> To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:26 PM
> I agree.
>
> Where is the edging out?
>
> Sherwood sorts on Dynamic Range-Narrow Spaced, and both
> rigs are 101db
> at 2 Kcs.
>
> I'm confused by Bob's statement that it "edges out" the
> K3.
>
> If you take the other parameters into consideration, the K3
> should be
> listed first and the 5000 listed second.
>
> 73,
>
> Kent K9ZTV
>
>
> On 12/1/2010 3:18 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
> > Pretty close to a dead heat between the K3 and the
> FT5000, except for blocking dynamic range (K3 is better by
> 13 dB) and filter ultimate attenuation (K3 is better by 15
> dB).
> >
> > Not bad for a 9-pound rig that starts at $1400.
> >
> > That said, I will now disqualify myself from the rest
> of this thread :)
> >
> > 73,
> > Wayne
> > N6KR
> >
> > Ed wrote:
> >
> >> http://www.sherweng.com/table.html
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3291 -
> Release Date: 12/01/10
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Fwd: New Sherwood report

> The Ft5000 has better PA than the K3. Its IMD performance is way
> superior to the K3 especially on the higher bands and 6 meters. It
> smacks of double standards harping on about Yaesu Keyclicks and
> ignoring SSB transmitter IMD especially on the K3 when it is so
> marginal.

The FT-5000 has better transmit IMD because it uses 48V FETs. Those
Yaesu (and other manufacturers) transmitters that use 12V PA devices
transistors are no better - perhaps marginally worse than the K3.

> I wish Elecraft would release a better PA using fets for the K3.

12V FETs would not produce any better IMD than the 2SC2782 used
in the K3 ... compare the MRF255 (12.5V VMOS FET) with its typical
-30 dBc IMD3 at 100 W PEP for a pair (-32 dBc at transmitter output
for TPO below 80 watts PEP).

Would I like Elecraft to provide a high voltage PA option - yes!
However, you must compare apples to apples - in this case 12V PA
devices to 12 V PA devices - and although the K3 PA is not as clean
as the 200 W 50V devices, it provides a level that is generally
acceptable in amateur service for 12V devices.

If you want to complain about "dirty" transmitters, start with a
campaign to get all the unmodified FT-1000D, FT-1000 MP, MK V
recalled by their manufacturer to fix the key clicks. Start a
campaign to get all the IC-746/7400 recalled to fix their horribly
noisy LO (transmitted phase noise). Start a campaign to get many
of the other 12V PA rigs with TX IMD *worse* than the K3 recalled.
Sure, even start a campaign to convince owners of 12V PA rigs to
keep their power output below 75W PEP ... all of those would go a
lot farther in cleaning up the bands than complaining about the
K3 transmit IMD.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 12/1/2010 9:27 PM, juergen wrote:

> Hi Ken
>
> The Ft5000 has better PA than the K3. Its IMD performance is way superior to the K3 especially on the higher bands and 6 meters. It smacks of double standards harping on about Yaesu Keyclicks and ignoring SSB transmitter IMD especially on the K3 when it is so marginal.
>
> Unnecessary wide transmission on any mode is bad for all of us.
> The key click issue and SSB IMD issue has same bad effect.
> Its wise not to throw stones in glass houses.
>
> I wish Elecraft would release a better PA using fets for the K3.
>
> The Yaesu FT5000 certainly has a better PA than the K3.
>
> The Ft5000 has superb transmitter IMD, far superior to the K3's transmitter.
>
> I find it interesting that so many observers harp endlessly about the Yaesu
> Keyclick problems and totally ignore the issue of the K3's poor SSB IMD.
>
> The Yaesu Ft5000 has the edge in this department.
>
> 73
> John
> --- On Wed, 12/1/10, K9ZTV<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> From: K9ZTV<[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: New Sherwood report
>> To: "[hidden email]"<[hidden email]>
>> Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:26 PM
>> I agree.
>>
>> Where is the edging out?
>>
>> Sherwood sorts on Dynamic Range-Narrow Spaced, and both
>> rigs are 101db
>> at 2 Kcs.
>>
>> I'm confused by Bob's statement that it "edges out" the
>> K3.
>>
>> If you take the other parameters into consideration, the K3
>> should be
>> listed first and the 5000 listed second.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Kent K9ZTV
>>
>>
>> On 12/1/2010 3:18 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>>> Pretty close to a dead heat between the K3 and the
>> FT5000, except for blocking dynamic range (K3 is better by
>> 13 dB) and filter ultimate attenuation (K3 is better by 15
>> dB).
>>>
>>> Not bad for a 9-pound rig that starts at $1400.
>>>
>>> That said, I will now disqualify myself from the rest
>> of this thread :)
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Wayne
>>> N6KR
>>>
>>> Ed wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://www.sherweng.com/table.html
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----
>>> No virus found in this message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3291 -
>> Release Date: 12/01/10
>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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David Gilbert

Re: Fwd: New Sherwood report

In reply to this post by juergen piezo

The reason that key clicks bother me so much more than poor TX IMD on
SSB is that in a SSB contest so many people have such abysmally crummy
audio due to excessive mic gain and compression anyway. TX IMD 25 or 30
db down from the main signal doesn't hold a candle to splatter only 5 or
10 db down. On CW, it takes a pretty damn poor TX to create
off-frequency trash in the absence of key clicks.

That's why ...

Dave AB7E

On 12/1/2010 7:27 PM, juergen wrote:

> Hi Ken
>
> The Ft5000 has better PA than the K3. Its IMD performance is way superior to the K3 especially on the higher bands and 6 meters. It smacks of double standards harping on about Yaesu Keyclicks and ignoring SSB transmitter IMD especially on the K3 when it is so marginal.
>
> Unnecessary wide transmission on any mode is bad for all of us.
> The key click issue and SSB IMD issue has same bad effect.
> Its wise not to throw stones in glass houses.
>
> I wish Elecraft would release a better PA using fets for the K3.
>
> The Yaesu FT5000 certainly has a better PA than the K3.
>
> The Ft5000 has superb transmitter IMD, far superior to the K3's transmitter.
>
> I find it interesting that so many observers harp endlessly about the Yaesu
> Keyclick problems and totally ignore the issue of the K3's poor SSB IMD.
>
> The Yaesu Ft5000 has the edge in this department.
>
> 73
> John
> --- On Wed, 12/1/10, K9ZTV<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> From: K9ZTV<[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: New Sherwood report
>> To: "[hidden email]"<[hidden email]>
>> Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:26 PM
>> I agree.
>>
>> Where is the edging out?
>>
>> Sherwood sorts on Dynamic Range-Narrow Spaced, and both
>> rigs are 101db
>> at 2 Kcs.
>>
>> I'm confused by Bob's statement that it "edges out" the
>> K3.
>>
>> If you take the other parameters into consideration, the K3
>> should be
>> listed first and the 5000 listed second.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Kent K9ZTV
>>
>>
>> On 12/1/2010 3:18 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>>> Pretty close to a dead heat between the K3 and the
>> FT5000, except for blocking dynamic range (K3 is better by
>> 13 dB) and filter ultimate attenuation (K3 is better by 15
>> dB).
>>> Not bad for a 9-pound rig that starts at $1400.
>>>
>>> That said, I will now disqualify myself from the rest
>> of this thread :)
>>> 73,
>>> Wayne
>>> N6KR
>>>
>>> Ed wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://www.sherweng.com/table.html
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>>>
>>>
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>
>
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Byron N6NUL

Re: Fwd: New Sherwood report

In reply to this post by juergen piezo

Hmm. I'm not seeing that in the data. Could you please point me to
where you are looking?

73, Byron N6NUL

On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 6:27 PM, juergen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The Ft5000 has better PA than the K3. Its IMD performance is way superior to the K3 especially on the higher bands and 6 meters. It smacks of double standards harping on about Yaesu Keyclicks and ignoring SSB transmitter IMD especially on the K3 when it is so marginal.
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