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IC-7300 video - things to come

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Bill-3

IC-7300 video - things to come

I am amazed at what the touch screen can do and all the choices the 7300
offers. That said, I do not see me using a touch screen - too old school
I guess. But, the video is interesting:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ic-7300/conversations/messages/2272

I am only posting this for informational purposes and do not wish to
start a thread bashing anything.

Bill W2BLC K-Line
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John Kramer

Re: IC-7300 video - things to come

I paid for my IC-7300 a few weeks back, and it has arrived with my dealer in the UK.
I am flying to the UK in two weeks time to fetch it. Super excited……but I am keeping
my KX3 :)

73
John

On 28 Mar 2016, at 5:02 PM, Bill <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am amazed at what the touch screen can do and all the choices the 7300 offers. That said, I do not see me using a touch screen - too old school I guess. But, the video is interesting: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ic-7300/conversations/messages/2272

I am only posting this for informational purposes and do not wish to start a thread bashing anything.

Bill W2BLC K-Line
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: IC-7300 video - things to come

Since this is Not an Elecraft product can this thread please be taken somewhere else?

From: John Kramer <[hidden email]>
To: Bill <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] IC-7300 video - things to come

I paid for my IC-7300 a few weeks back, and it has arrived with my dealer in the UK.
I am flying to the UK in two weeks time to fetch it. Super excited……but I am keeping
my KX3 :)

73
John

On 28 Mar 2016, at 5:02 PM, Bill <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am amazed at what the touch screen can do and all the choices the 7300 offers. That said, I do not see me using a touch screen - too old school I guess. But, the video is interesting: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ic-7300/conversations/messages/2272

I am only posting this for informational purposes and do not wish to start a thread bashing anything.

Bill W2BLC K-Line
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Bill-3

Re: IC-7300 video - things to come

Actually, this does effect Elecraft users. There may be some good ideas
that we will want to see incorporated on future Elecraft products. For
example, the use of a touch screen for a lot of its controls. I do not
care for touch screen myself, but it is the sign of the times on many
things and lots of folks are very comfortable with the concept.

I did not intent to raise any ire over this post.

Bill W2BLC K-Line
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Re: IC-7300 video - things to come

Im just too lazy to reach all the way up to the rig to touch the screen with my dirty fingers and smudge up the screen.
In a nutshell, why I dont like touchscreens on radios...
George NE2I

On Monday, March 28, 2016 6:39 PM, Bill <[hidden email]> wrote:

Actually, this does effect Elecraft users. There may be some good ideas
that we will want to see incorporated on future Elecraft products. For
example, the use of a touch screen for a lot of its controls. I do not
care for touch screen myself, but it is the sign of the times on many
things and lots of folks are very comfortable with the concept.

I did not intent to raise any ire over this post.

Bill W2BLC K-Line
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Gary Gregory-2

Re: IC-7300 video - things to come

In reply to this post by Bill-3

Bill
I agree, similarly with an Elad, not my choice BUT there is always the possibility some feature or other may be a popular item Elecraft can look at implementing in future FW and/or hardware.
Competition drives innovation and that is good for all parties.
Touch screen is not likely to be something I want in my radio but there IS a market for it no doubt. I just smile when I imagine a mobile with a touch screen, driving along, your contact asks you to go up 5 or something. I know I would end up either going somewhere I didn't expect or going off planet.....a bump in the road would be my downfall I reckon.
73
Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: "Bill" <[hidden email]>
Sent: ‎29/‎03/‎2016 9:40 AM
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] IC-7300 video - things to come

Actually, this does effect Elecraft users. There may be some good ideas
that we will want to see incorporated on future Elecraft products. For
example, the use of a touch screen for a lot of its controls. I do not
care for touch screen myself, but it is the sign of the times on many
things and lots of folks are very comfortable with the concept.

I did not intent to raise any ire over this post.

Bill W2BLC K-Line
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Rick Robinson

Re: IC-7300 video - things to come

I foresee Bluetooth or newer technology tablets or phone size units that
control our radio as an option to control our radios . So touchscreen
control seems like more than a fad.

On Monday, March 28, 2016, Gary <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Bill
> I agree, similarly with an Elad, not my choice BUT there is always the
> possibility some feature or other may be a popular item Elecraft can look
> at implementing in future FW and/or hardware.
> Competition drives innovation and that is good for all parties.
> Touch screen is not likely to be something I want in my radio but there IS
> a market for it no doubt. I just smile when I imagine a mobile with a touch
> screen, driving along, your contact asks you to go up 5 or something. I
> know I would end up either going somewhere I didn't expect or going off
> planet.....a bump in the road would be my downfall I reckon.
> 73
> Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Bill" <[hidden email] <javascript:;>>
> Sent: ‎29/‎03/‎2016 9:40 AM
> To: "[hidden email] <javascript:;>" <[hidden email]
> <javascript:;>>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] IC-7300 video - things to come
>
> Actually, this does effect Elecraft users. There may be some good ideas
> that we will want to see incorporated on future Elecraft products. For
> example, the use of a touch screen for a lot of its controls. I do not
> care for touch screen myself, but it is the sign of the times on many
> things and lots of folks are very comfortable with the concept.
>
> I did not intent to raise any ire over this post.
>
> Bill W2BLC K-Line
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email] <javascript:;>
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--
Rick, W8ZT

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Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT

Re: IC-7300 video - things to come

There is one overwhelming reason that we'll see touchscreens:

As radios become even more software driven, we'll see more and more new
features added (like ESSB).

The engineers and developers have to find a way to add those functions
to existing buttons (push this button 3 times, or go to a menu, or
something), provide a radio with blank buttons (which makes that new
radio look unfinished, or a "stripped" version of a more expensive rig).

... or use a technology that allows buttons to be painted on the screen
-- so the front of the radio can evolve along with the radio itself.

I'm not ready for a rig that requires a separate device/computer to run.

73 -- Lynn

On 3/28/2016 8:22 PM, Rick Robinson wrote:
> I foresee Bluetooth or newer technology tablets or phone size units that
> control our radio as an option to control our radios . So touchscreen
> control seems like more than a fad.

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Brendon Whateley

Re: IC-7300 video - things to come

Cars went through the patch where everything moved onto touch screens.
Ergonomically, that is a really bad choice. Newer cars are moving back to
having twist controls and buttons for some things that were tried as touch
screen controls. The correct answer is to have common features using real
buttons. Context sensitive buttons mixed between real buttons that are
labeled on a screen of some sort and virtual buttons.

The P(x)3 is a good example where you could use a touch screen in a natural
and useful way. I think smart phones have really advanced how we can use
touch screens. But at the same time, physical controls are really very much
easier to use. For some ideas, look at the interfaces for small aircraft
GPS/Glass Cockpit and similar systems. For some examples:
http://explore.garmin.com/en-US/general-aviation/ Each generation changes
the mix of physical controls, reassignable controls and touch screen
controls. The truth is that some things are better done on a touch screen.
Others with physical controls. And in a light aircraft, when you are in
turbulence... touch screens are really hard to use!

We are still in a bit of an experimental place, and I'm sure things will
move towards a happy balance.

- Brendon
KK6AYI

On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 9:31 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> There is one overwhelming reason that we'll see touchscreens:
>
> As radios become even more software driven, we'll see more and more new
> features added (like ESSB).
>
> The engineers and developers have to find a way to add those functions to
> existing buttons (push this button 3 times, or go to a menu, or something),
> provide a radio with blank buttons (which makes that new radio look
> unfinished, or a "stripped" version of a more expensive rig).
>
> ... or use a technology that allows buttons to be painted on the screen --
> so the front of the radio can evolve along with the radio itself.
>
> I'm not ready for a rig that requires a separate device/computer to run.
>
> 73 -- Lynn
>
> On 3/28/2016 8:22 PM, Rick Robinson wrote:
>
>> I foresee Bluetooth or newer technology tablets or phone size units that
>> control our radio as an option to control our radios . So touchscreen
>> control seems like more than a fad.
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Guy Olinger K2AV

Re: IC-7300 video - things to come

In reply to this post by Gary Gregory-2

In a contest, particularly a serious effort at a weekend long contest, the
constant reaching from the keyboard to the front of the rig to operate a
touch screen presents a repetitive motion problem whose outcome is anywhere
between tired and injured. This is why many people use the keyboard to
direct N1MM to QSY up or down instead of using the knob.

Some folks use things like Pig Knob, or a keypad driving macros because it
can be set next to the keyboard and used while still maintaining wrist
support for the tuning hand. For those who have already been injured by
repetitive motions at work, these simplifications may be what makes it
possible for them to operate any extended time in a contest.

73, Guy K2AV

On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 8:10 PM, Gary <[hidden email]> wrote:

N1EU

Re: IC-7300 video - things to come

Interesting discussion. I'm not (yet?) a touchscreen fan for radio
control, especially during a contest.

That being said (cough, cough), I am lately having some fun designing my
own touch screen interface for an ANAN-100D. Someone came up with the
software glue to recognize and map any midi control to any CAT command for
the OpenHPSDR radios (including Apache/ANAN) and there's a $5 TouchOSC
Android application that allows you to quickly design from scratch any type
of virtual midi controller on an Android or iPad tablet. All this has been
made possible by the Open Source nature of the software. So instead of a
macro keyboard, I can use my 7 in tablet.

The upshot is that I might be a fan of touchscreen if they were user
configurable. I really like the idea of users being able to design their
own front panels.

73, Barry N1EU

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> In a contest, particularly a serious effort at a weekend long contest, the
> constant reaching from the keyboard to the front of the rig to operate a
> touch screen presents a repetitive motion problem whose outcome is anywhere
> between tired and injured. This is why many people use the keyboard to
> direct N1MM to QSY up or down instead of using the knob.
>
> Some folks use things like Pig Knob, or a keypad driving macros because it
> can be set next to the keyboard and used while still maintaining wrist
> support for the tuning hand. For those who have already been injured by
> repetitive motions at work, these simplifications may be what makes it
> possible for them to operate any extended time in a contest.
>
> 73, Guy K2AV
>
> On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 8:10 PM, Gary <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Bill
> > I agree, similarly with an Elad, not my choice BUT there is always the
> > possibility some feature or other may be a popular item Elecraft can look
> > at implementing in future FW and/or hardware.
> > Competition drives innovation and that is good for all parties.
> > Touch screen is not likely to be something I want in my radio but there
> IS
> > a market for it no doubt. I just smile when I imagine a mobile with a
> touch
> > screen, driving along, your contact asks you to go up 5 or something. I
> > know I would end up either going somewhere I didn't expect or going off
> > planet.....a bump in the road would be my downfall I reckon.
> > 73
> > Gary
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Bill" <[hidden email]>
> > Sent: ‎29/‎03/‎2016 9:40 AM
> > To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] IC-7300 video - things to come
> >
> > Actually, this does effect Elecraft users. There may be some good ideas
> > that we will want to see incorporated on future Elecraft products. For
> > example, the use of a touch screen for a lot of its controls. I do not
> > care for touch screen myself, but it is the sign of the times on many
> > things and lots of folks are very comfortable with the concept.
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

lstavenhagen

Re: IC-7300 video - things to come

In reply to this post by Bill-3

Wayne and Eric are probably already aware of the competition and working on their own responses, but to me the UI advances I personally like are:

- visual representations of the band: panadapters with spectrum displays, waterfalls and the like
- being able to easily QSY to items of interest on the representation.
- get rid of the ghastly external computer.

In the old old days, the curmudgeonly command to "listen listen listen!" meant endlessly scanning back and forth with the tuning knob. Which is perfectly fine and that's how I do it with my rigs right now, but this is a whole new technology that can supplement that with a visual counterpart like "use your eyes!".

So what I like in the 7300 that I think Elecraft could think about moving towards:
- integrated spectrum scope/screen, rather than an external device
- touch-screen operation for QSY, close examination of segments, etc.

What I don't like and would hope Elecraft would avoid in a competing solution:
- messy implementation with all these horrible buttons around the spectrum scope.
- horrible buttons also respond to touch, making goofs and accidental misses at the spectrum screen your usual iPad experience when you attempt to use an iPad for something useful. Screens and rotating things going all over the place, making a mess. Blech!

So one idea would be a regular knob operated UI for controlling the rig itself and a separate spectrum screen on the side, for example, that responds to both knobs and touch perhaps. That way, fat fingers won't accidentally reset your rig into an unusable configuration like the iPad interface, but you do have the touch-screen capability at the spectrum scope, where fat fingers will do the least harm and skillful use will have the most benefit.

Anyway, some of my ideas,

73,
LS
W5QD

N1EU

Re: IC-7300 video - things to come

The IC-7300 display has hideous resolution. It can't even trace curves,
just a bunch of bars. Reminds me of the original 2002 Orion sweep display.

Whatever Elecraft does going forward, please go to the highest resolution
screen that is available and have the horsepower to draw a beautifully
detailed panadapter trace. That's why pc-based panadapters are so popular
right now.

I'm skeptical about touch screen qsy. I can't see how you can quickly get
right on frequency.

IMHO, pandapter-centric visual tuning desperately needs a bandmap overlay
with spotted stations (whether self-spotted or cluster) indicated to be
truly useful.

Barry N1EU

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 10:18 AM, lstavenhagen <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Wayne and Eric are probably already aware of the competition and working on
> their own responses, but to me the UI advances I personally like are:
>
> - visual representations of the band: panadapters with spectrum displays,
> waterfalls and the like
> - being able to easily QSY to items of interest on the representation.
> - get rid of the ghastly external computer.
>
> In the old old days, the curmudgeonly command to "listen listen listen!"
> meant endlessly scanning back and forth with the tuning knob. Which is
> perfectly fine and that's how I do it with my rigs right now, but this is a
> whole new technology that can supplement that with a visual counterpart
> like
> "use your eyes!".
>
> So what I like in the 7300 that I think Elecraft could think about moving
> towards:
> - integrated spectrum scope/screen, rather than an external device
> - touch-screen operation for QSY, close examination of segments, etc.
>
> What I don't like and would hope Elecraft would avoid in a competing
> solution:
> - messy implementation with all these horrible buttons around the spectrum
> scope.
> - horrible buttons also respond to touch, making goofs and accidental
> misses
> at the spectrum screen your usual iPad experience when you attempt to use
> an
> iPad for something useful. Screens and rotating things going all over the
> place, making a mess. Blech!
>
> So one idea would be a regular knob operated UI for controlling the rig
> itself and a separate spectrum screen on the side, for example, that
> responds to both knobs and touch perhaps. That way, fat fingers won't
> accidentally reset your rig into an unusable configuration like the iPad
> interface, but you do have the touch-screen capability at the spectrum
> scope, where fat fingers will do the least harm and skillful use will have
> the most benefit.
>
> Anyway, some of my ideas,
>
> 73,
> LS
> W5QD
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/IC-7300-video-things-to-come-tp7615622p7615666.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
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lstavenhagen

Re: IC-7300 video - things to come

yep, I totally agree. This would be a TBD item for a UI designer, IMO: to what degree do we actually replace the tuning knob with touch-screen QSY? Do we make it capable of just getting into the neighborhood and then the user has to fine tune with the tuning knob? I.e. a kind of dual-capability approach. Or do we make it able to do exact tuning, completely replacing the tuning knob?

Probably one of those things that would have to be developed on a trial-and-error basis, IMO. One of the hazards of very powerful technologies - the club can be just as easily turned on _you_ as on your good intentions LOL.

73,
LS
W5QD

Gary Smith-2

Re: IC-7300 video - things to come

In reply to this post by Bill-3

Touch Screen... No thank you. I get the
allure but ergonomically its going to be
miserable the older we are. If you're
reaching up to touch a screen, try doing
that for a contest's worth when you have
shoulder issues. If you don't have them
now, you will after the contest is over.
Have a touch pad on the table, You'll be
hunched over it all the time you're using
it and your neck will be screaming.

Don't believe me? Good, I'm a Chiropractor
and I'll be happy to see you & it'll be
sooner than later.

;)

73,

Gary
KA1J

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Elecraft mailing list

Re: IC-7300 video - things to come

In reply to this post by Bill-3

Bill,
Your comment is appreciated. I am in your camp but we are a bit older and happy with our
current campfire. Younger hams and new hams might be very engaged with a touchscreen
interface. The “over $8 K” product managers seem to have peaked lately in their “plethora of knobs"
approach to the “mature ham market”. Elecraft is still the primo innovator with regard to performance,
packaging, reliability and clever circuit design.

Alan/K6ADG
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Jim Cassidy

Re: IC-7300 video - things to come

In reply to this post by Gary Smith-2

I may have missed something in this discussion but I question what is different from using a touch screen or the buttons on the radio as we have now? I operated a considerable amount of time in the WPX SSB test last weekend using a K3 and about all I ever changed was the tuning knob and the width control. And maybe he NR and NB a couple of times. Using N1MM+ I did not even need to change bands using the radio controls.

73 Jim KI7Y

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Smith" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 4:08:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] IC-7300 video - things to come

Touch Screen... No thank you. I get the
allure but ergonomically its going to be
miserable the older we are. If you're
reaching up to touch a screen, try doing
that for a contest's worth when you have
shoulder issues. If you don't have them
now, you will after the contest is over.
Have a touch pad on the table, You'll be
hunched over it all the time you're using
it and your neck will be screaming.

Don't believe me? Good, I'm a Chiropractor
and I'll be happy to see you & it'll be
sooner than later.

;)

73,

Gary
KA1J

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--
Jim Cassidy

KI7Y
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efortner

Re: IC-7300 video - things to come

In reply to this post by N1EU

Try using a touchscreen in a light aircraft on a bumpy air day and you will learn to hate a touch screen.
Earl, K4KAY

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Barry N1EU
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 10:13 AM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] IC-7300 video - things to come

Interesting discussion. I'm not (yet?) a touchscreen fan for radio
control, especially during a contest.

That being said (cough, cough), I am lately having some fun designing my
own touch screen interface for an ANAN-100D. Someone came up with the
software glue to recognize and map any midi control to any CAT command for
the OpenHPSDR radios (including Apache/ANAN) and there's a $5 TouchOSC
Android application that allows you to quickly design from scratch any type
of virtual midi controller on an Android or iPad tablet. All this has been
made possible by the Open Source nature of the software. So instead of a
macro keyboard, I can use my 7 in tablet.

The upshot is that I might be a fan of touchscreen if they were user
configurable. I really like the idea of users being able to design their
own front panels.

73, Barry N1EU

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

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Gary Smith-2

Re: IC-7300 video - things to come

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

I'm not the one here with the most money,
I'm absolutely positive of that, but that
said; I can buy any rig I want and the
dollars spent wouldn't in any way affect
me, or anything I do in the future.

I just bought a K3S because of the many
things it represents but I'm not a martyr
to buy USA when something else is better
or, buy something wonderful that is
software based only like the Flex 6700; I
bought the K3s because to my discovery, it
is the finest radio out there. Yes, this
is the Elecraft reflector so most of us
are already on board but I bought this
radio (I upgraded from an updated K3)
because it is to me, the pinnacle of
today's equipment.

I just worked the VK0KE on 160 last night.
I honestly, to God do not think that any
radio I have ever owned before, save the
K3 with the updated synthesizer, would
have heard the incredibly diminutive
signal that I heard reply to me. I was the
first NA station to post them in the
cluster yesterday and that is because of
the quality of this radio. The K3s Rocks.

IC-7300 Video... Pffttt.

73,

Gary
Gary
KA12J

> Bill,
> Your comment is appreciated. I am in your camp but we are a bit older and happy with our
> current campfire. Younger hams and new hams might be very engaged with a touchscreen
> interface. The "over $8 K" product managers seem to have peaked lately in their "plethora of knobs"
> approach to the "mature ham market". Elecraft is still the primo innovator with regard to performance,
> packaging, reliability and clever circuit design.
>
> Alan/K6ADG

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lstavenhagen

Re: IC-7300 video - things to come

For me, even if touch-screen UI's were written for old people like myself, hi hi, I still think its a technology in its infancy.

The infantile part of it being primarily in its application, not so much just the mere fact that TS technology itself new and still in "1.x" revisions. When Garmin came out with touch-screen UIs on their aviation GPS products is when I recognized that the T-S train had skipped off the rails - I wondered if anyone at Garmin's aviation products division had ever even flown in a light aircraft before? And Apple continues to threaten to go all-iPad with every release, though I suppose if sanity could return somewhere Apple might be the most likely first place for it to do so.

In amateur radio, my opinion is mixed. I can see myself having fun with T-S on a panadaptor, but the smile kind of fades from my face when thinking about using the radio in general on a greasy thumprinted, fussy screen with windows popping up all over the place....

All things being equal, though, I prefer knobs on a radio and not having to wash my hands with toilet bowl cleaner before I use it hi hi. Like I said, maybe a separate screen for the T-S spectrum scope, but everything else relegated to good ol' knobs hi hi.

73,
LS
W5QD