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[K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

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Joe Planisky

[K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

The topic of K3 fan noise seems to come up every now and then, and
each time it does there's a chorus of people who say the fans in their
K3 are absolutely silent, and an equal chorus of people who say the
fans are clearly audible.

I'm in the latter camp. I hate fan noise and I can clearly hear the
fans on my K3 even at the lowest speed.

I recognize that people's perception of noise depends on many things:
other ambient noise in the environment, personal hearing acuity, how
the equipment is placed on the desk, what kind of surface is
immediately behind it, etc. etc.

However, I'm also wondering if Elecraft has changed brands or models
of fans from time to time. It's possible that some brands/models
might be quieter than others.

The fans in my K3 are made by UTEC and have model numbers of

AT6015L-12L2B-ND2 and <same prefix>-ND5

I would be interested in hearing from others who care to check the
brand and model # of their fans, and whether you perceive them to be
quiet or not.

It's probably best if we don't clutter the list with fan brands and
models, so please reply to me directly and I'll post a summary of my
findings in a few days.

73
--
Joe KB8AP

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Dave Perry N4QS

Re: [K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

Fan noise on my K3 is very slight. Not a problem here.

Dave, N4QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Planisky" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 11:19 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

> The topic of K3 fan noise seems to come up every now and then, and
> each time it does there's a chorus of people who say the fans in their
> K3 are absolutely silent, and an equal chorus of people who say the
> fans are clearly audible.
>
> I'm in the latter camp. I hate fan noise and I can clearly hear the
> fans on my K3 even at the lowest speed.
>
> I recognize that people's perception of noise depends on many things:
> other ambient noise in the environment, personal hearing acuity, how
> the equipment is placed on the desk, what kind of surface is
> immediately behind it, etc. etc.
>
> However, I'm also wondering if Elecraft has changed brands or models
> of fans from time to time. It's possible that some brands/models
> might be quieter than others.
>
> The fans in my K3 are made by UTEC and have model numbers of
>
> AT6015L-12L2B-ND2 and <same prefix>-ND5
>
> I would be interested in hearing from others who care to check the
> brand and model # of their fans, and whether you perceive them to be
> quiet or not.
>
> It's probably best if we don't clutter the list with fan brands and
> models, so please reply to me directly and I'll post a summary of my
> findings in a few days.
>
> 73
> --
> Joe KB8AP
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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Andrew Moore-3

Re: [K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

In reply to this post by Joe Planisky

Joe - while I appreciate your concern for cluttering the list with fan noise
"noise," that's exactly what these lists are for -- discussion -- and now
there are loads of tools and filtering options for incoming email. Gmail's
threads for example will keep all related messages together (if subject is
the same)... I think there's more value in letting everybody see the
responses as they come in. Relative to the grand scheme of things, even the
fully loaded thread will be nothing compared to the rest of the bandwidth
used around it. Great stuff, bring it on...! Just my opinion.

--Andrew "I despise fan noise" NV1B
..

messages in the thread neatly contained to a single

On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Joe Planisky <[hidden email]> wrote:

Joe Planisky

Re: [K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

In reply to this post by Joe Planisky

Since the responses to my inquiry about K3 fan brands/models have
virtually stopped, I thought I'd post the results. There are indeed
at least 2 different fans in use in K3s:

Elina HDF6015L-12LB-1 and UTEC AT6015L-12L2B-ND2 and ND5

The Elina fans are made by Inaba Denki Sangyo, a Japanese company.
You can find specs for this fan at http://www.europeanthermodynamics.com/Fans&Blowers/elina%20fan_eng.pdf

The UTEC fans are made by United Thermal Engineering Corp. Their
office is in San Jose, CA. but their factories are in Japan, Taiwan,
and China. http://www.utecusa.com/products/pdffiles/pid_1-45-152_%28SPEC%29AT6015L-12L2B%20ND1%2812-22-08%29.pdf

According to the published specs, the UTEC fans have a slightly higher
rated speed (3000 rpm vs 2800 rpm), more airflow (15.4 cfm vs 10.6
cfm), higher static pressure (2.21mm vs 1.5mm),and higher noise (24.8
dBA vs 21 dBA) than the Elina fans. They also operate over a wider
range of voltages than the Elina fans (6-13.8v vs 10.2-13.8v). Both
use ball bearings. Based just on the specs, I would expect the UTEC
fans to be slightly more powerful and slightly louder.

From the responses I received, it looks like the Elina fans were used
on earlier K3s with serial numbers < 900 or so.

I received responses from 13 people (including myself), covering 13
K3s. If the reporter used words or phrases like "quiet", "silent",
"never hear them", I counted their response as "quiet". If they used
words or phrases like "loud", "annoying", "I can hear them", I counted
their response as "loud"

UTEC Quiet 3
UTEC Loud: 4
Elina Quiet: 6
Elina Loud: 0

With such a small sample of self-reported anecdotes of a subjective
perception, the results of this little survey are statistically
virtually meaningless. However, they do suggest a direction for
further research in that no one reported loud Elina fans.

I may have a chance to do some side-by-side comparisons between my K3
and an earlier SN K3 in a few weeks. If that turns up anything
interesting, I'll report it here.

Thanks to everyone who took the time and effort to respond to my
request.

73
--
Joe KB8AP

On May 23, 2010, at 9:19 AM, Joe Planisky wrote:

> The topic of K3 fan noise seems to come up every now and then, and
> each time it does there's a chorus of people who say the fans in their
> K3 are absolutely silent, and an equal chorus of people who say the
> fans are clearly audible.
>
> ...

> However, I'm also wondering if Elecraft has changed brands or models
> of fans from time to time. It's possible that some brands/models
> might be quieter than others.

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Peter Wollan-2

Re: [K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

The p-value is 0.07 (Fisher Exact test). Not dramatically
significant, but well above the "statistically virtually meaningless"
level.

You might write back to your respondents and see if there are any
differences in the K3s, such as the amount of empty space inside, or
in settings.

Peter W0LLN

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Joe Planisky <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Since the responses to my inquiry about K3 fan brands/models have
> virtually stopped, I thought I'd post the results. There are indeed
> at least 2 different fans in use in K3s:
>
(snip)
>
> UTEC Quiet 3
> UTEC Loud: 4
> Elina Quiet: 6
> Elina Loud: 0
>
> With such a small sample of self-reported anecdotes of a subjective
> perception, the results of this little survey are statistically
> virtually meaningless.
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Brett Howard

Re: [K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

In reply to this post by Joe Planisky

Well go ahead and put me down for having the UTEC fans in SN#1116.

I'd say that the fans are perfectly reasonable yet they are clearly
audible when they are running. When they step up into high gear they
are very clearly heard and this is in a room full of computers with
several fans in each one.

~Brett (N7MG) (Previously KC7OTG)

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Joe Planisky <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Since the responses to my inquiry about K3 fan brands/models have
> virtually stopped, I thought I'd post the results. There are indeed
> at least 2 different fans in use in K3s:
>
> Elina HDF6015L-12LB-1 and UTEC AT6015L-12L2B-ND2 and ND5
>
> The Elina fans are made by Inaba Denki Sangyo, a Japanese company.
> You can find specs for this fan at http://www.europeanthermodynamics.com/Fans&Blowers/elina%20fan_eng.pdf
>
> The UTEC fans are made by United Thermal Engineering Corp. Their
> office is in San Jose, CA. but their factories are in Japan, Taiwan,
> and China. http://www.utecusa.com/products/pdffiles/pid_1-45-152_%28SPEC%29AT6015L-12L2B%20ND1%2812-22-08%29.pdf
>
> According to the published specs, the UTEC fans have a slightly higher
> rated speed (3000 rpm vs 2800 rpm), more airflow (15.4 cfm vs 10.6
> cfm), higher static pressure (2.21mm vs 1.5mm),and higher noise (24.8
> dBA vs 21 dBA) than the Elina fans. They also operate over a wider
> range of voltages than the Elina fans (6-13.8v vs 10.2-13.8v). Both
> use ball bearings. Based just on the specs, I would expect the UTEC
> fans to be slightly more powerful and slightly louder.
>
> From the responses I received, it looks like the Elina fans were used
> on earlier K3s with serial numbers < 900 or so.
>
> I received responses from 13 people (including myself), covering 13
> K3s. If the reporter used words or phrases like "quiet", "silent",
> "never hear them", I counted their response as "quiet". If they used
> words or phrases like "loud", "annoying", "I can hear them", I counted
> their response as "loud"
>
> UTEC Quiet 3
> UTEC Loud: 4
> Elina Quiet: 6
> Elina Loud: 0
>
> With such a small sample of self-reported anecdotes of a subjective
> perception, the results of this little survey are statistically
> virtually meaningless. However, they do suggest a direction for
> further research in that no one reported loud Elina fans.
>
> I may have a chance to do some side-by-side comparisons between my K3
> and an earlier SN K3 in a few weeks. If that turns up anything
> interesting, I'll report it here.
>
> Thanks to everyone who took the time and effort to respond to my
> request.
>
> 73
> --
> Joe KB8AP
>
>
> On May 23, 2010, at 9:19 AM, Joe Planisky wrote:
>
>> The topic of K3 fan noise seems to come up every now and then, and
>> each time it does there's a chorus of people who say the fans in their
>> K3 are absolutely silent, and an equal chorus of people who say the
>> fans are clearly audible.
>>
>> ...
>
>> However, I'm also wondering if Elecraft has changed brands or models
>> of fans from time to time. It's possible that some brands/models
>> might be quieter than others.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Julian, G4ILO

Re: [K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

In reply to this post by Joe Planisky

Joe Planisky wrote

From the responses I received, it looks like the Elina fans were used
on earlier K3s with serial numbers < 900 or so.

I received responses from 13 people (including myself), covering 13
K3s. If the reporter used words or phrases like "quiet", "silent",
"never hear them", I counted their response as "quiet". If they used
words or phrases like "loud", "annoying", "I can hear them", I counted
their response as "loud"

UTEC Quiet 3
UTEC Loud: 4
Elina Quiet: 6
Elina Loud: 0

I didn't reply since it would be a major hassle getting the K3 out to look at the make of fan, but since my S/N is 222 I guess my fans are Elina and I would definitely be in the "quiet" camp. If only the fan in my IC-910H was as quiet (and that comes on all the time.) I've also had computers that were noisier than my K3.

Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222 KX3 #110
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
* KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
* KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html

Stephen Prior

Re: [K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

All of this backs up comments I made on this list a year or so ago, and at
that time hardly anyone agreed with me!

It seems pretty clear that the early fans were indeed silent, certainly the
same cannot be said of the UTEC ones in my #980. Gary kindly even sent me
some more but the difference was negligible. I have spent a lot of time on
this, even mounting the fan panel on rubber bushes - all to no avail.

I wonder if I can find a source of the Elina fans in Eu?

73 Stephen G4SJP

On 28/05/2010 09:51, "Julian, G4ILO" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> Joe Planisky wrote:
>> From the responses I received, it looks like the Elina fans were used
>> on earlier K3s with serial numbers < 900 or so.
>>
>> I received responses from 13 people (including myself), covering 13
>> K3s. If the reporter used words or phrases like "quiet", "silent",
>> "never hear them", I counted their response as "quiet". If they used
>> words or phrases like "loud", "annoying", "I can hear them", I counted
>> their response as "loud"
>>
>> UTEC Quiet 3
>> UTEC Loud: 4
>> Elina Quiet: 6
>> Elina Loud: 0
>>
>
> I didn't reply since it would be a major hassle getting the K3 out to look
> at the make of fan, but since my S/N is 222 I guess my fans are Elina and I
> would definitely be in the "quiet" camp. If only the fan in my IC-910H was
> as quiet (and that comes on all the time.) I've also had computers that were
> noisier than my K3.
>
> -----
> Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222.
> * G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
> * KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
> * KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html

W8JI

Re: [K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

> It seems pretty clear that the early fans were indeed
> silent, certainly the
> same cannot be said of the UTEC ones in my #980. Gary
> kindly even sent me
> some more but the difference was negligible. I have spent
> a lot of time on
> this, even mounting the fan panel on rubber bushes - all
> to no avail.

That isn't surprising. Fan mounts, although people really
like to mess with them, almost never have a noticeable
effect on noise.

Other than the design of the fan itself, the number one
thing that affects noise is having an object near the blades
(especially out near the tips). Restricting the airflow also
doesn't help. The worse thing to do for a given amount of
restriction is place it on the fan inlet.

I haven't played with a K3, but cutting some thick spacers
to move the fans outward from the PA might be worth a try.
Cheap sound meters are readily available, and a good way to
test.

73 Tom

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DAVID M. Elliott

Re: [K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

You can download a pretty good spl meter for the iphone through the App Store. It is free and works well. Search for sound meter at the App Store.

I downloaded it at a rock concert with a friend's kids -- went immediately to the drug store and bought ear plugs.

73 de W6BK

On May 29, 2010, at 3:31 AM, Tom W8JI wrote:

>> It seems pretty clear that the early fans were indeed
>> silent, certainly the
>> same cannot be said of the UTEC ones in my #980. Gary
>> kindly even sent me
>> some more but the difference was negligible. I have spent
>> a lot of time on
>> this, even mounting the fan panel on rubber bushes - all
>> to no avail.
>
> That isn't surprising. Fan mounts, although people really
> like to mess with them, almost never have a noticeable
> effect on noise.
>
> Other than the design of the fan itself, the number one
> thing that affects noise is having an object near the blades
> (especially out near the tips). Restricting the airflow also
> doesn't help. The worse thing to do for a given amount of
> restriction is place it on the fan inlet.
>
> I haven't played with a K3, but cutting some thick spacers
> to move the fans outward from the PA might be worth a try.
> Cheap sound meters are readily available, and a good way to
> test.
>
> 73 Tom
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Joe Planisky

Re: [K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

In reply to this post by W8JI

That assumes that the airflow is the predominant source of noise. In
my case, the airflow noise is secondary to what I believe is bearing
noise. At low speeds, this "motor noise" is what I hear mostly. It
is the same across 2 sets of UTEC fans.

I've posted a recording of my K3 fans at http://www.jeffnet.org/~jplan
if you're curious about what it sounds like. (note: I'm not sure the
embedding works, so there's also a download link. It's a 4.1MB WAV
file.) That recording was made with an AKG C1000 mic about 2 feet
directly in front of the K3, about where my head would be when
operating. Use headphones to get the full effect.

Of course, we can't tell anything about how loud it actually sounds
from that recording since we have no idea of the gain between my mic
and your ears. I'm posting that recording to give an idea of the
quality of the sound, not how loud it is.

I'd like to try a quality fan with sleeve bearings. Sleeve bearings
don't last as long as ball bearings, but they are quieter.

73
--
Joe KB8AP

On May 29, 2010, at 3:31 AM, Tom W8JI wrote:

> That isn't surprising. Fan mounts, although people really
> like to mess with them, almost never have a noticeable
> effect on noise.
>
> Other than the design of the fan itself, the number one
> thing that affects noise is having an object near the blades
> (especially out near the tips). Restricting the airflow also
> doesn't help. The worse thing to do for a given amount of
> restriction is place it on the fan inlet.
>
> I haven't played with a K3, but cutting some thick spacers
> to move the fans outward from the PA might be worth a try.
> Cheap sound meters are readily available, and a good way to
> test.
>
> 73 Tom
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

W8JI

Re: [K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

The level on your recording is so low I can barely hear it
Joe, and it also will not display on my spectrum analyzer
software.

What I do hear sounds exactly like what I described below,
where I am talking about something being too close to the
blade tips. It does not sound like bearing noise to me. It
sounds like the siren effect or tone effect caused by
turbulent air from the blades hitting something that isn't
moving with the blade.

If this is inside the fan, like the motor support bars,
there is little that can be done other than slow the blade
speed down. If this is outside the fan, like a fixed object
too close to the blades, the fan can be moved outwards.

In really quiet fans the support bars are curved so they
don't cause a noise pulse when the blade crosses the support
bars, plus the blades are better shaped.

Sure doesn't sound like bearings though. From what I hear it
sounds like a tone plus air noise.

I'm a little out of the " fan loop" because the last time I
was heavily looking at air mover noise was in the 90's.

73 Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Planisky" <[hidden email]>
To: "Tom W8JI" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2010 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

> That assumes that the airflow is the predominant source of
> noise. In my case, the airflow noise is secondary to
> what I believe is bearing noise. At low speeds, this
> "motor noise" is what I hear mostly. It is the same
> across 2 sets of UTEC fans.
>
> I've posted a recording of my K3 fans at
> http://www.jeffnet.org/~jplan if you're curious about
> what it sounds like. (note: I'm not sure the embedding
> works, so there's also a download link. It's a 4.1MB WAV
> file.) That recording was made with an AKG C1000 mic
> about 2 feet directly in front of the K3, about where my
> head would be when operating. Use headphones to get the
> full effect.
>
> Of course, we can't tell anything about how loud it
> actually sounds from that recording since we have no idea
> of the gain between my mic and your ears. I'm posting
> that recording to give an idea of the quality of the
> sound, not how loud it is.
>
> I'd like to try a quality fan with sleeve bearings.
> Sleeve bearings don't last as long as ball bearings, but
> they are quieter.
>
> 73
> --
> Joe KB8AP
>
>
> On May 29, 2010, at 3:31 AM, Tom W8JI wrote:
>
>> That isn't surprising. Fan mounts, although people really
>> like to mess with them, almost never have a noticeable
>> effect on noise.
>>
>> Other than the design of the fan itself, the number one
>> thing that affects noise is having an object near the
>> blades
>> (especially out near the tips). Restricting the airflow
>> also
>> doesn't help. The worse thing to do for a given amount of
>> restriction is place it on the fan inlet.
>>
>> I haven't played with a K3, but cutting some thick
>> spacers
>> to move the fans outward from the PA might be worth a
>> try.
>> Cheap sound meters are readily available, and a good way
>> to
>> test.
>>
>> 73 Tom
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list:
>> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Ross Primrose N4RP

Re: [K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

Is this fan noise an issue with 10W K3s, or only with the 100w PAs? I
expect to be able to purchase a 10W K3 sometime this fall, and I'd be
disappointed if I had to listen to the fan...

73, Ross N4RP

--
FCC Section 97.313(a) “At all times, an amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications.”

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KK7P

Re: [K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

> Is this fan noise an issue with 10W K3s, or only with the 100w PAs?

The 10W radio has no fan.

73,

Lyl eKK7P
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Mike Reublin

Re: [K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

In reply to this post by Ross Primrose N4RP

I have yet to hear the fan on my K3/100. I have a fairly noisy computer
though, so that may be masking it. SN 3539.
73, Mike NF4L

Ross Primrose N4RP wrote:
> Is this fan noise an issue with 10W K3s, or only with the 100w PAs? I
> expect to be able to purchase a 10W K3 sometime this fall, and I'd be
> disappointed if I had to listen to the fan...
>
> 73, Ross N4RP
>
>

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Philippe Trottet

Re: [K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

Following the discussion, I made a full power test with my K3/100 on the
dummy load, and no noise in the room...My wife & 4 years old son were
away !
PA temp was rising up to 55ºC, the 2 fans were not audible from my
chair. I could heard barely if I put my ears very close to them and feel
the heat flux with my hand.
Indeed very quiet fans.
73's
Philippe A65BI
K3#3616

>>> Mike <[hidden email]> 30-05-2010 15:01 >>>
I have yet to hear the fan on my K3/100. I have a fairly noisy computer

though, so that may be masking it. SN 3539.
73, Mike NF4L

Ross Primrose N4RP wrote:
> Is this fan noise an issue with 10W K3s, or only with the 100w PAs? I

> expect to be able to purchase a 10W K3 sometime this fall, and I'd be

> disappointed if I had to listen to the fan...
>
> 73, Ross N4RP
>
>

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Joe Planisky

Re: [K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

In reply to this post by Joe Planisky

Thanks for the responses, folks. I've got all the info I need for the
moment.

73
--
Joe KB8AP

On May 27, 2010, at 11:28 AM, Joe Planisky wrote:

> Since the responses to my inquiry about K3 fan brands/models have
> virtually stopped, I thought I'd post the results.
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Steve Ellington

Re: [K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

I've come to the conclusion that this discussion is really about EARS....Not
fans!

Steve
N4LQ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Planisky" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

> Thanks for the responses, folks. I've got all the info I need for the
> moment.
>
> 73
> --
> Joe KB8AP
>
> On May 27, 2010, at 11:28 AM, Joe Planisky wrote:
>
>> Since the responses to my inquiry about K3 fan brands/models have
>> virtually stopped, I thought I'd post the results.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Tim Heasman

Re: [K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

Hi All,

I can't hear the fans at all after 40 years in ship yards and construction
sites.

73

Tim
gm4lmh

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John_N1JM

Re: [K3] K3 fan noise, part XXLIV

My fans are just audible. My shack is quiet. They even come on occasionally in receive mode. I like the idea I can hear them. I know they are working :-).