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[K3] Need for advice was; noise reduction

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Pete Smith N4ZR

[K3] Need for advice was; noise reduction

One of the things that strikes me reading through the manual is how
little advice there is in it about how to use the K3, as opposed to
documenting its features. I'm sure that the defaults probably represent
their best judgment in many cases, and that the guys probably despaired
at anticipating the needs of such a diverse community, without coming up
with a 300-page book, but when the manual doesn't even suggest whether
to use ADC-F or AGC-S for various modes, I think that's being a little
too "neutral."

Question is how can we, as a user community, fill this gap? Maybe the
VA3CR web page for the 1000MP series offers a possible model. Any
volunteers?

--
73, Pete N4ZR

The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at www.conteststations.com
The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at reversebeacon.blogspot.com,
spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000

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wayne burdick

Re: Need for advice was; noise reduction

Administrator

Pete,

The K3 defaults to settings that should work for most operators, and
this is reflected in many places in the owner's manual (for example,
see the first paragraph in the CONFIG Menu section, page 53). That
said, I'd like to enhance the owner's manual along the lines you
suggest.

I've already noted that I should provide advice regarding per-mode AGC
slow/fast and other AGC settings. What other areas would you like to
see additional guidance in?

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Dec 6, 2010, at 8:15 AM, Pete Smith wrote:

> One of the things that strikes me reading through the manual is how
> little advice there is in it about how to use the K3, as opposed to
> documenting its features. I'm sure that the defaults probably
> represent
> their best judgment in many cases, and that the guys probably
> despaired
> at anticipating the needs of such a diverse community, without
> coming up
> with a 300-page book, but when the manual doesn't even suggest whether
> to use ADC-F or AGC-S for various modes, I think that's being a little
> too "neutral."
>
> Question is how can we, as a user community, fill this gap? Maybe the
> VA3CR web page for the 1000MP series offers a possible model. Any
> volunteers?
>
> --
> 73, Pete N4ZR
>
> The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at www.conteststations.com
> The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at
> reversebeacon.blogspot.com,
> spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Dick Dickinson

Re: [K3] Need for advice was; noise reduction

In reply to this post by Pete Smith N4ZR

Hi Pete,

Your thoughts regarding usage and perhaps techniques may have some merit. A
web page or perhaps PDF document may be appropriate for distribution. With
modest resources, either might be created.

Have you considered offering to be a clearing house for such information
regarding 'how's' that might be provided by fellow Elecraft users? I
suspect that offering here on the Elecraft reflector might give you some
good material from others for a start. With a little success in format and
content, even more might be encouraged to participate. Sources such as
names and call signs of contributors might be included.

If all passes muster, Elecraft might provide a link to a download or
webpage.

Good luck & 73,
Dick - KA5KKT

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

One of the things that strikes me reading through the manual is how
little advice there is in it about how to use the K3, as opposed to
documenting its features. I'm sure that the defaults probably represent
their best judgment in many cases, and that the guys probably despaired
at anticipating the needs of such a diverse community, without coming up
with a 300-page book, but when the manual doesn't even suggest whether
to use ADC-F or AGC-S for various modes, I think that's being a little
too "neutral."

Question is how can we, as a user community, fill this gap? Maybe the
VA3CR web page for the 1000MP series offers a possible model. Any
volunteers?

--
73, Pete N4ZR

______________________________________________________________
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Jeff Hall, W6UX

Re: Need for advice was; noise reduction

In reply to this post by Pete Smith N4ZR

>I've already noted that I should provide advice regarding per-mode AGC
>slow/fast and other AGC settings. What other areas would you like to
>see additional guidance in?
>
>73,
>Wayne
>N6KR

Wayne,

I've had my K3 for nearly a year, and have only been on HF for about 1 year.
My background is software engineering, not electronics or RF. I have no
idea, really, why or when I should use NR 5-1 vs NR 8-4 (I just let my ears
guide me, but I don't understand when one algorithm is more appropriate than
another). When I try to clean up a signal, I generally go through the
following steps:

1. Engage NB (sometimes this takes the edge off the crackle I tend to hear
on 40)
2. If it's really hard to hear the signal, I'll active NR, starting at 5-1
(I only do SSB right now), and progressively move to 8-4, trying to see if
any of those settings improve my ability to hear the other op.
3. If I hear someone tuning up, I'll engage NOTCH.
4. Often I'll take out the low end rumble with LO CUT (HI CUT rarely seems
to improve anything for me). If there's a lot of QRM (during contests,
etc), I'll shrink the WIDTH as much
as I can and still be able to communicate.

But, each time it's a guessing game as to what will work. Maybe that's just
how life is when it comes to HF. But, if the experts on here were to
compile a list of "use case scenarios" -- this is a term all software people
are familiar with, it might be helpful to point the masses in the right
direction of how to clean up their reception and improve their transmission
(mic settings, etc).

So I envision a supplemental manual ("advanced operating tips" or something)
that is a compendium of challenges users frequently encounter and how to
adjust the K3 to solve those challenges-- for example:

SCENARIO: You want to work a weaker signal but there's someone stepping on
it from 2 KHz up

(describe recommended controls to adjust to reduce or eliminate the QRM)

SCENARIO: My noise level is S7 and the signal I want to work is just barely
above this

(describe recommended controls to adjust to increase the ability to lift
the signal out of the noise)

SCENARIO: People tell me my audio has too much treble

(describe recommended mic adjustments)

Examining the history of this reflector should help to identify which
scenarios would cover 80% of the user base's most common usage scenarios.

73 de Jeff, W6UX
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wayne burdick

Re: [K3] Need for advice was; noise reduction

Administrator

In reply to this post by Dick Dickinson

Note that we already have an extensive FAQ page for the K3:

http://www.elecraft.com/K3/K3FAQ.htm

There are many operating tips on this page, categorized by mode, etc.
NR is one of the areas covered.

Would this be a good place to add more extensive operating advice?
This page can be updated much more easily than the owner's manual.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Dec 6, 2010, at 9:51 AM, Edward Dickinson, III wrote:

> Hi Pete,
>
> Your thoughts regarding usage and perhaps techniques may have some
> merit. A
> web page or perhaps PDF document may be appropriate for
> distribution. With
> modest resources, either might be created.
>
> Have you considered offering to be a clearing house for such
> information
> regarding 'how's' that might be provided by fellow Elecraft users? I
> suspect that offering here on the Elecraft reflector might give you
> some
> good material from others for a start. With a little success in
> format and
> content, even more might be encouraged to participate. Sources such
> as
> names and call signs of contributors might be included.
>
> If all passes muster, Elecraft might provide a link to a download or
> webpage.
>
>
> Good luck & 73,
> Dick - KA5KKT
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>
> One of the things that strikes me reading through the manual is how
> little advice there is in it about how to use the K3, as opposed to
> documenting its features. I'm sure that the defaults probably
> represent
> their best judgment in many cases, and that the guys probably
> despaired
> at anticipating the needs of such a diverse community, without
> coming up
> with a 300-page book, but when the manual doesn't even suggest whether
> to use ADC-F or AGC-S for various modes, I think that's being a little
> too "neutral."
>
> Question is how can we, as a user community, fill this gap? Maybe the
> VA3CR web page for the 1000MP series offers a possible model. Any
> volunteers?
>
> --
> 73, Pete N4ZR
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Don Cunningham

Re: Need for advice was; noise reduction

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Wayne,
You didn't ask me, but I'm going to break my rule and respond to this one.
The K3 has been a unique radio in a respect that you may be overlooking. It
has "evolved" over many years, with some of the "knowledgeable" guys owning
low serial numbered rigs, and they don't see what we are faced with as new
owners. My K3 is serial number 4076, and my background is more into analog
rigs, but I have owned many "DSP" based rigs, from the IC-775/TS-870 era up.
I used to do mostly digital (RTTY), but find upon this return to ham radio
that RTTY rag chewing is sort of a thing of the past and I am re-learning
SSB and hopefully CW in the future.

All that said, the K3 manual, to this old guy, looks more like a reference
book for the low serial numbered guys that have helped this fine radio
evolve over the years. It doesn't explain button/knob functions like you
would for a new user, but is a fine reference for those who have helped
determine just what that knob/button would do. I HAVE read through the
manual, but it has changed three or four times since I bought my K3 in
February of this year, and I haven't taken time to read through them all to
see what the differences are.

What I think "MIGHT" clear up things somewhat is a Mode section that
actually teaches you what default settings are, and what "enhancements"
changes might make to your operation, by mode. In the front of the manual
where you try to explain what each knob/button does, refer the user to the
"advanced page" by mode. In other words, if a control does different things
in SSB, CW or DATA, refer the user to the appropriate page by mode for
further learning. I think that would take some of the fatigue we are seeing
as new users. We haven't been here since the birth of the K3, and anyone
can see in a day's read of the reflector that the archives are nearly
useless for learning, as each subject gets so convoluted that you can search
forever and not find what you want.

I am retired, have lots of time, BUT I want to spend my remaining years
operating, not reading all the time, hi. When I have asked about things on
the reflector, the common answer from the "experts" is RTFM!!! That's lots
of help. I hope others will chime in, but the manual needs to become a "new
user's guide" as well as a nice reference for the old timers.
73,
Don, WB5HAK

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Helmut Berka - DL2MAJ

Re: [K3] Need for advice was; noise reduction

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Dear Wayne,

From my point of view I like to have a "written" (Paper or pdf) manual.

I see your effort in updating such a manual with every performance &
feature extension of the firmware (e.g. APF) and additional modules like
DVR, K144XV, P3, KPA500, K432XV (hopefully), ....

A short description should be in the manual, more details & tips then at
K3FAQ.htm.

So to find a compromise a manual update once a year would be OK for me.

vy 73 de

Helmut - DL2MAJ
-----
K3 #1804

On 06.12.2010 19:09, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Note that we already have an extensive FAQ page for the K3:
>
> http://www.elecraft.com/K3/K3FAQ.htm
>
> There are many operating tips on this page, categorized by mode, etc.
> NR is one of the areas covered.
>
> Would this be a good place to add more extensive operating advice?
> This page can be updated much more easily than the owner's manual.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>
> On Dec 6, 2010, at 9:51 AM, Edward Dickinson, III wrote:
>
>
>> Hi Pete,
>>
>> Your thoughts regarding usage and perhaps techniques may have some
>> merit. A
>> web page or perhaps PDF document may be appropriate for
>> distribution. With
>> modest resources, either might be created.
>>
>> Have you considered offering to be a clearing house for such
>> information
>> regarding 'how's' that might be provided by fellow Elecraft users? I
>> suspect that offering here on the Elecraft reflector might give you
>> some
>> good material from others for a start. With a little success in
>> format and
>> content, even more might be encouraged to participate. Sources such
>> as
>> names and call signs of contributors might be included.
>>
>> If all passes muster, Elecraft might provide a link to a download or
>> webpage.
>>
>>
>> Good luck& 73,
>> Dick - KA5KKT
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----
>>
>> One of the things that strikes me reading through the manual is how
>> little advice there is in it about how to use the K3, as opposed to
>> documenting its features. I'm sure that the defaults probably
>> represent
>> their best judgment in many cases, and that the guys probably
>> despaired
>> at anticipating the needs of such a diverse community, without
>> coming up
>> with a 300-page book, but when the manual doesn't even suggest whether
>> to use ADC-F or AGC-S for various modes, I think that's being a little
>> too "neutral."
>>
>> Question is how can we, as a user community, fill this gap? Maybe the
>> VA3CR web page for the 1000MP series offers a possible model. Any
>> volunteers?
>>
>> --
>> 73, Pete N4ZR
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

Robert

Re: [K3] Need for advice was; noise reduction

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

A FAQ or youtube video on operating split would be most helpful for us newbies.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne Burdick" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, December 6, 2010 12:09:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Need for advice was; noise reduction

Note that we already have an extensive FAQ page for the K3:

http://www.elecraft.com/K3/K3FAQ.htm

There are many operating tips on this page, categorized by mode, etc.
NR is one of the areas covered.

Would this be a good place to add more extensive operating advice?
This page can be updated much more easily than the owner's manual.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Dec 6, 2010, at 9:51 AM, Edward Dickinson, III wrote:

______________________________________________________________
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Pete Smith N4ZR

Re: [K3] Need for advice was; noise reduction

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Yes.

73, Pete N4ZR

The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at www.conteststations.com
The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at reversebeacon.blogspot.com,
spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000

On 12/6/2010 1:09 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Note that we already have an extensive FAQ page for the K3:
>
> http://www.elecraft.com/K3/K3FAQ.htm
>
> There are many operating tips on this page, categorized by mode, etc.
> NR is one of the areas covered.
>
> Would this be a good place to add more extensive operating advice?
> This page can be updated much more easily than the owner's manual.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>
> On Dec 6, 2010, at 9:51 AM, Edward Dickinson, III wrote:
>
>> Hi Pete,
>>
>> Your thoughts regarding usage and perhaps techniques may have some
>> merit. A
>> web page or perhaps PDF document may be appropriate for
>> distribution. With
>> modest resources, either might be created.
>>
>> Have you considered offering to be a clearing house for such
>> information
>> regarding 'how's' that might be provided by fellow Elecraft users? I
>> suspect that offering here on the Elecraft reflector might give you
>> some
>> good material from others for a start. With a little success in
>> format and
>> content, even more might be encouraged to participate. Sources such
>> as
>> names and call signs of contributors might be included.
>>
>> If all passes muster, Elecraft might provide a link to a download or
>> webpage.
>>
>>
>> Good luck& 73,
>> Dick - KA5KKT
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----
>>
>> One of the things that strikes me reading through the manual is how
>> little advice there is in it about how to use the K3, as opposed to
>> documenting its features. I'm sure that the defaults probably
>> represent
>> their best judgment in many cases, and that the guys probably
>> despaired
>> at anticipating the needs of such a diverse community, without
>> coming up
>> with a 300-page book, but when the manual doesn't even suggest whether
>> to use ADC-F or AGC-S for various modes, I think that's being a little
>> too "neutral."
>>
>> Question is how can we, as a user community, fill this gap? Maybe the
>> VA3CR web page for the 1000MP series offers a possible model. Any
>> volunteers?
>>
>> --
>> 73, Pete N4ZR
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

The Smiths

Re: [K3] Need for advice was; noise reduction

In reply to this post by Helmut Berka - DL2MAJ

For all of those that asked for it on here I have sent a series of 5 documents regarding some of the K3 NB/NR etc. Tools. I hope that was helpful to you. If there are others that would like a copy please send me mail off the reflector. Thank you, 73,

Michael
N6MQL
(assigned)

> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 19:38:24 +0100
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Need for advice was; noise reduction
>
> Dear Wayne,
>
> From my point of view I like to have a "written" (Paper or pdf) manual.
>
> I see your effort in updating such a manual with every performance &
> feature extension of the firmware (e.g. APF) and additional modules like
> DVR, K144XV, P3, KPA500, K432XV (hopefully), ....
>
> A short description should be in the manual, more details & tips then at
> K3FAQ.htm.
>
> So to find a compromise a manual update once a year would be OK for me.
>
>
>
> vy 73 de
>
>
>
> Helmut - DL2MAJ
> -----
> K3 #1804
>
>
> On 06.12.2010 19:09, Wayne Burdick wrote:
> > Note that we already have an extensive FAQ page for the K3:
> >
> > http://www.elecraft.com/K3/K3FAQ.htm
> >
> > There are many operating tips on this page, categorized by mode, etc.
> > NR is one of the areas covered.
> >
> > Would this be a good place to add more extensive operating advice?
> > This page can be updated much more easily than the owner's manual.
> >
> > 73,
> > Wayne
> > N6KR
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 6, 2010, at 9:51 AM, Edward Dickinson, III wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Hi Pete,
> >>
> >> Your thoughts regarding usage and perhaps techniques may have some
> >> merit. A
> >> web page or perhaps PDF document may be appropriate for
> >> distribution. With
> >> modest resources, either might be created.
> >>
> >> Have you considered offering to be a clearing house for such
> >> information
> >> regarding 'how's' that might be provided by fellow Elecraft users? I
> >> suspect that offering here on the Elecraft reflector might give you
> >> some
> >> good material from others for a start. With a little success in
> >> format and
> >> content, even more might be encouraged to participate. Sources such
> >> as
> >> names and call signs of contributors might be included.
> >>
> >> If all passes muster, Elecraft might provide a link to a download or
> >> webpage.
> >>
> >>
> >> Good luck& 73,
> >> Dick - KA5KKT
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ----
> >>
> >> One of the things that strikes me reading through the manual is how
> >> little advice there is in it about how to use the K3, as opposed to
> >> documenting its features. I'm sure that the defaults probably
> >> represent
> >> their best judgment in many cases, and that the guys probably
> >> despaired
> >> at anticipating the needs of such a diverse community, without
> >> coming up
> >> with a 300-page book, but when the manual doesn't even suggest whether
> >> to use ADC-F or AGC-S for various modes, I think that's being a little
> >> too "neutral."
> >>
> >> Question is how can we, as a user community, fill this gap? Maybe the
> >> VA3CR web page for the 1000MP series offers a possible model. Any
> >> volunteers?
> >>
> >> --
> >> 73, Pete N4ZR
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >>
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

N5GE

Re: Need for advice was; noise reduction

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

I would like to see a section describing how to zero beat the 2nd RX to the main
to stop the ?whooshing? when it gets near one or two Hz of zero beat.

Can this be done?

73,

Tom Childers
Radio Amateur N5GE
Licensed since 1976
QCWA Member 35102
ARRL Life Member

On Mon, 6 Dec 2010 08:45:59 -0800, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

[snip]
>I've already noted that I should provide advice regarding per-mode AGC
>slow/fast and other AGC settings. What other areas would you like to
>see additional guidance in?
>
>73,
>Wayne
>N6KR
[snip]

______________________________________________________________
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Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Need for advice was; noise reduction

Tom,

I believe that is time to put the K3 into diversity receive which should
stop the "whooshing" if it is related to frequency/phase differences
within the receiver. Without the phase locking that is inherent in
diversity mode, that "whooshing" is a natural consequence of slight
phase and frequency differences.

OTOH, if it is related to phase differences coming from the antennas,
there is no cure without work at the antennas - the receivers are doing
their proper job of translating their independent RF inputs to baseband
audio. In diversity mode, the audio will be heard from both channels
and it is up to the human brain to figure out which one is the best to
listen to

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/6/2010 7:49 PM, Amateur Radio Operator N5GE wrote:
> I would like to see a section describing how to zero beat the 2nd RX to the main
> to stop the ?whooshing? when it gets near one or two Hz of zero beat.
>
> Can this be done?
>
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Bill VanAlstyne W5WVO

Re: Need for advice was; noise reduction

In reply to this post by Don Cunningham

Don et al.,

As a pro technical writer, I should like to address myself to your point.

I am not and have never been an Elecraft employee, and I have not worked on
the Elecraft documentation. Had I been privileged to be asked to do so,
however, I would have lobbied hard for taking a slightly different tack with
some of it -- something more along the lines that you suggest.

One of the truisms in technical writing is that most people don't like to
read manuals, and it is clinically true that some people -- those with
learning disabilities -- CANNOT read manuals: or, at least, cannot retain
any meaningful knowledge from reading them. Their brains simply don't work
that way. This affliction seems to be increasingly prevalent as the years go
by. Some blame the media, some the educational system. In any event, a
derivative truism has developed over the past couple of decades as people's
attention spans have become shorter and shorter. And that is: Shorter is
Better. Less is More.

As an editor, I spent much of each day deleting unnecessary verbiage from
other people's technical writing. I am unstinting in my use of the Delete
key. However, just as often, I find that key concepts are not adequately
explained. Sometimes it is abundantly clear to me that the original writer
simply didn't actually understand the material; in other cases, however, it
is equally clear that the writer was just trying to keep the material as
brief as possible, on instructions from "higher up." And in many such cases,
the material winds up being too terse to be comprehensible to any beyond
that cadre of readers who already understand it.

To write a technical document that completely explains every nuance of a
highly sophisticated, complex piece of equipment is to write a Book. The
"religion" of technical writing nowadays is that Nobody Reads Books.
Anything that has page numbers in three digits is a Book. With the K3 Manual
version I currently have on my computer at 82 pages, Elecraft has stayed
well under that numinous edge-of-the-world limitation -- I believe, to its
detriment. But that is just one man's belief -- well, perhaps two or three.
I am admittedly old-school when it comes to such matters. Perhaps, with all
my skills accumulated over many years, the fact that I am only part-time
employed (albeit at a goodly rate) speaks to that fact to some degree.

In any case, I just wanted to let you know that there was somebody out here
who's in the same choir you're preaching to.

Bill W5WVO
New Mexico

-----Original Message-----
From: Don Cunningham
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 18:30
To: Wayne Burdick ; [hidden email]
Cc: Elecraft List
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Need for advice was; noise reduction

Wayne,
You didn't ask me, but I'm going to break my rule and respond to this one.
The K3 has been a unique radio in a respect that you may be overlooking. It
has "evolved" over many years, with some of the "knowledgeable" guys owning
low serial numbered rigs, and they don't see what we are faced with as new
owners. My K3 is serial number 4076, and my background is more into analog
rigs, but I have owned many "DSP" based rigs, from the IC-775/TS-870 era up.
I used to do mostly digital (RTTY), but find upon this return to ham radio
that RTTY rag chewing is sort of a thing of the past and I am re-learning
SSB and hopefully CW in the future.

All that said, the K3 manual, to this old guy, looks more like a reference
book for the low serial numbered guys that have helped this fine radio
evolve over the years. It doesn't explain button/knob functions like you
would for a new user, but is a fine reference for those who have helped
determine just what that knob/button would do. I HAVE read through the
manual, but it has changed three or four times since I bought my K3 in
February of this year, and I haven't taken time to read through them all to
see what the differences are.

What I think "MIGHT" clear up things somewhat is a Mode section that
actually teaches you what default settings are, and what "enhancements"
changes might make to your operation, by mode. In the front of the manual
where you try to explain what each knob/button does, refer the user to the
"advanced page" by mode. In other words, if a control does different things
in SSB, CW or DATA, refer the user to the appropriate page by mode for
further learning. I think that would take some of the fatigue we are seeing
as new users. We haven't been here since the birth of the K3, and anyone
can see in a day's read of the reflector that the archives are nearly
useless for learning, as each subject gets so convoluted that you can search
forever and not find what you want.

I am retired, have lots of time, BUT I want to spend my remaining years
operating, not reading all the time, hi. When I have asked about things on
the reflector, the common answer from the "experts" is RTFM!!! That's lots
of help. I hope others will chime in, but the manual needs to become a "new
user's guide" as well as a nice reference for the old timers.
73,
Don, WB5HAK

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samuel ernst-fortin

Re: Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation)

Bill,
FWIW: my background is EE with a minor in Industrial Psych (specifically Human
Factors / Ergonomics / Usability Engineering). One book which resonated with me
as an engineer is "Psychology of Everyday Things". In it, the author discusses
mental models, and those of the developer vs. those of the user. When those
mental models fail to intersect or the mental model of the user is inaccurate
(both will often be the case with a complex system) - you have the problem being
described by the various users here.

This is a field of study that gets a lot of attention in the Aviation community
with Flight Management Systems and highly complicated flight deck automation.

To be more terse and to this point: the mental model of the developers as to how
the K3 rig features are designed to work and be operated for maximum performance
hasn't been effectively communicated or fostered in the user community. This is
not a situation specific to the K3 of course. In some respects the rig's
features drives the operators actions instead of the other way around... and
people are fumbling around with them till they seem to get something that
"works".

Luckily, this situation can be cured. A K3 is no Boeing 787 Flight Management
System.

As to "nobody reads books", while I think this is true of some segment of the
population (in engineering school - I knew many people who never read their
textbooks... turned in pristine books as used)... I still have mine and often
refer to them at home and at work - that "model" doesn't accurately describe the
HAM community as a whole.

Personally, I like and will forever prefer books, where I can hold it or put it
down, annotate and dog-ear and mark and flag pages, navigate it as I wish and
see the totality of the topic subject matter, gauge it by it's physical
dimensions. I don't find the "massively hyper-linked, ever-changing, fragmented
and presented in many silly windows" means of communicating technical
information nearly as effective.

I prefer books. :)
Sam, KJ4VPI

________________________________
From: Bill VanAlstyne W5WVO <[hidden email]>
To: Don Cunningham <[hidden email]>; Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]>;
[hidden email]
Cc: Elecraft List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Mon, December 6, 2010 10:37:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Need for advice was; noise reduction

Don et al.,

As a pro technical writer, I should like to address myself to your point.
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John Ragle

Re: K3 (Documentation) ... a hint

On 12/7/2010 8:24 AM, Sam, KJ4VPI, wrote: (paraphrasing: I love books!)

The list (nest?) of features hiding inside the K3 firmware is nearly
astonishing, and quite wonderful, but I find the Users' Manual to be
almost useless when one needs to find a specific item.

The "finder" inside *.pdf readers is very limited.

Instead, I rely heavily on the "Nifty Ham" accessory booklet, and it
sits alongside my K3 in a handy spot.

As a user and author of technical articles and monographs, I have always
told my students that the key component of such is a proper index.
Unfortunately, the art of index writing has suffered considerably at the
hands of those who write "electronic" documents, though it still thrives
in the Sam's and Microsoft tomes on the Windows operating systems.

Word processors contain excellent facilities for building proper
indices, though these tools are seldom used by "on-line" authors. I
don't believe the "finders" in Acrobat (or Microsoft Word) were ever
intended to replace indices, though there seems to be a very strong
tendency for authors to believe that once the main object (or text) has
been perfected, the task is finished. A "Table of Contents" is not
enough, and one might hope that future versions of the Users' Manual
would be more complete.

I add that this complaint directed at the K3 Users' Manual is actually
more general...try reading the ICOM manual for one of their
transceivers, etc. ad naus. These authors deserve the digitus impudicus
as a reward for their failed efforts. They need to learn a lesson from
book authors!
/
/John Ragle -- W1ZI/
/

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Don Nelson

Re: Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation)

In reply to this post by samuel ernst-fortin

On 12/7/2010 6:24 AM, samuel ernst-fortin wrote:

> Bill,
> FWIW: my background is EE with a minor in Industrial Psych (specifically Human
> Factors / Ergonomics / Usability Engineering). One book which resonated with me
> as an engineer is "Psychology of Everyday Things". In it, the author discusses
> mental models, and those of the developer vs. those of the user. When those
> mental models fail to intersect or the mental model of the user is inaccurate
> (both will often be the case with a complex system) - you have the problem being
> described by the various users here.
>
> This is a field of study that gets a lot of attention in the Aviation community
> with Flight Management Systems and highly complicated flight deck automation.
>
> To be more terse and to this point: the mental model of the developers as to how
> the K3 rig features are designed to work and be operated for maximum performance
> hasn't been effectively communicated or fostered in the user community. This is
> not a situation specific to the K3 of course. In some respects the rig's
> features drives the operators actions instead of the other way around... and
> people are fumbling around with them till they seem to get something that
> "works".
>
> Luckily, this situation can be cured. A K3 is no Boeing 787 Flight Management
> System.
>
> As to "nobody reads books", while I think this is true of some segment of the
> population (in engineering school - I knew many people who never read their
> textbooks... turned in pristine books as used)... I still have mine and often
> refer to them at home and at work - that "model" doesn't accurately describe the
> HAM community as a whole.
>
>
> Personally, I like and will forever prefer books, where I can hold it or put it
> down, annotate and dog-ear and mark and flag pages, navigate it as I wish and
> see the totality of the topic subject matter, gauge it by it's physical
> dimensions. I don't find the "massively hyper-linked, ever-changing, fragmented
> and presented in many silly windows" means of communicating technical
> information nearly as effective.
>
> I prefer books. :)
> Sam, KJ4VPI
>
>
>

For those in a decision making position on a product line, the thought
of more sales would be most welcome.

How many HAMs have not wanted to buy a K3, for example, because it is
too complicated? Now there is a challenge. The K3 is complicated and
those would-be buyers are correct in their assessment. Now enter a
really outstanding tech writer. Some who who has the knack and a sense
of what is needed in a document to compel the reader to try the product.
The user manual is available to anyone who wants to download it from the
web – a wise marketing tool. If the user manual was well enough done, a
would-be HAM would learn how the product works, in detail, and enjoy the
process of learning about that product.

The current K3 user manual is more of a reference manual. It is compact
and efficient in presenting information without the inefficiency of
examples and explanation. A user manual would be much more than that and
would have the luxury of including examples and comparisons of different
settings with explanations of how and why a feature works the way it does.

I can believe that at least 250 more K3s would be sold if there was a
good K3 user manual and other marketing documentation (user useful
material). If my calculator is correct, that would be on the order of
$1,000,000 in additional sales. Now if I were in that decision making
position , I surely would sit up and do more than take notice.

Don, N0YE

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Don Cunningham

Re: Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation)

Don,
I wager you are underestimating. I would bet the number of additional sales
would be 1,000+, HEAVY on the plus. Also I fear that MANY people monitor
the noise on this list and go on to other radios after monitoring for only a
short time.
73,
Another Don, WB5HAK

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Buck - k4ia

Re: [K3] Need for advice was; noise reduction

In reply to this post by Pete Smith N4ZR

What happened to the K3 wiki? Wouldn't that be a good place for users to
develop a "handbook?"

Buck
k4ia
K3 #101

In a message dated 12/7/2010 11:54:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[hidden email] writes:

For all of those that asked for it on here I have sent a series of 5
documents regarding some of the K3 NB/NR etc. Tools. I hope that was helpful to
you. If there are others that would like a copy please send me mail off
the reflector. Thank you, 73,

Michael
N6MQL
(assigned)

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David Gilbert

Re: Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation)

In reply to this post by Don Nelson

I've owned my K3 for roughly two years, use it a lot, and I love it. I
think I know how most of it works and how to set it up, but there is
simply no question that the K3 user manual is a horrible piece of
documentation. There is a lot of information there, but it is
fragmented and terribly organized. I could understand how the manual
might be weak coming out of the chute, but at this stage in the K3
development I think there is very little excuse for such a poorly
structured reference. Whether in printed or pdf form it's just awful,
and I fully agree that it fails miserably as a marketing tool to attract
potential buyers. The K3 has an unwarranted (in my opinion) reputation
as an overly complex rig to set up and operate, but the user manual only
accentuates that perception.

73,
Dave AB7E

On 12/7/2010 9:26 AM, Don Nelson wrote:

>
> For those in a decision making position on a product line, the thought
> of more sales would be most welcome.
>
> How many HAMs have not wanted to buy a K3, for example, because it is
> too complicated? Now there is a challenge. The K3 is complicated and
> those would-be buyers are correct in their assessment. Now enter a
> really outstanding tech writer. Some who who has the knack and a sense
> of what is needed in a document to compel the reader to try the product.
> The user manual is available to anyone who wants to download it from the
> web – a wise marketing tool. If the user manual was well enough done, a
> would-be HAM would learn how the product works, in detail, and enjoy the
> process of learning about that product.
>
> The current K3 user manual is more of a reference manual. It is compact
> and efficient in presenting information without the inefficiency of
> examples and explanation. A user manual would be much more than that and
> would have the luxury of including examples and comparisons of different
> settings with explanations of how and why a feature works the way it does.
>
> I can believe that at least 250 more K3s would be sold if there was a
> good K3 user manual and other marketing documentation (user useful
> material). If my calculator is correct, that would be on the order of
> $1,000,000 in additional sales. Now if I were in that decision making
> position , I surely would sit up and do more than take notice.
>
> Don, N0YE
>

David Gilbert

Re: [K3] Need for advice was; noise reduction

In reply to this post by Buck - k4ia

No, it wouldn't. A wiki wouldn't be organized any better than the
current K3 manual. The K3 manual suffers less from not having enough
important information than it does from being structured like it was
written by an engineer who felt he had more important things to do.

73,
Dave AB7E

On 12/7/2010 9:58 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> What happened to the K3 wiki? Wouldn't that be a good place for users to
> develop a "handbook?"
>
> Buck
> k4ia
> K3 #101
>
> In a message dated 12/7/2010 11:54:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> [hidden email] writes:
>
> For all of those that asked for it on here I have sent a series of 5
> documents regarding some of the K3 NB/NR etc. Tools. I hope that was helpful to
> you. If there are others that would like a copy please send me mail off
> the reflector. Thank you, 73,
>
> Michael
> N6MQL
> (assigned)
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

123