Elecraft › [K3]

[K3] Need for advice was; noise reduction

Classic

List

Threaded

41 messages Options

123

Don Cunningham

Re: [K3] Need for advice was; noise reduction

The K3 Wiki was pulled by Thom LaCosta due to "lack of use". Besides, it
would be more disjointed than the manual!!
73,
Don, WB5HAK

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

AC7AC

Re: K3 (Documentation) ... a hint

In reply to this post by John Ragle

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

David Gilbert

Re: K3 (Documentation) ... a hint

I also use the search capability for documents (including the K3 manual)
written in pdf format, but that is only useful if you know basically
what you are seeking. A user manual that only helps you clarify or
elaborate on something you already partially understand is crippled.

73,
Dave AB7E

On 12/7/2010 10:50 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> As another technical writer and editor, I lean heavily on key words searches
> in PDF in just about any documentation I must read. It's been years since I
> bothered to look in an index if the document is available in PDF. However, I
> become very dependent upon the index (and often frustrated chasing blind
> leads) when only a paper copy is available.
>
> Of course, key word searches turn up many wrong "hits" too, but tapping
> "next" is much faster than flipping pages and often uncovers some references
> I want to look at more closely, either right now or later when I've answered
> the pressing question.
>
> I know that Wayne makes use of the MS Word index building facilities in the
> K3 Owner's manual, managing a concordance file that evolves over time.
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of John Ragle
> Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 7:42 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 (Documentation) ... a hint
>
> On 12/7/2010 8:24 AM, Sam, KJ4VPI, wrote: (paraphrasing: I love books!)
>
> The list (nest?) of features hiding inside the K3 firmware is nearly
> astonishing, and quite wonderful, but I find the Users' Manual to be
> almost useless when one needs to find a specific item.
>
> The "finder" inside *.pdf readers is very limited.
>

Alan Bloom

Re: K3 (Documentation) ... a hint

In reply to this post by AC7AC

I find a well-designed index to be very helpful. But the key word is
"well-designed". Computer-generated indexes leave a lot to be desired
unless they are edited by a human.

For example, believe it or not, the California Vehicle Code has a very
nice index. If you are looking up rules that apply to bicycles, for
example, they are all listed as sub-entries under the "Bicycles" entry
in the index. A human can do that kind of thing far more accurately and
completely than a computer can.

Unfortunately, in far too many publications it is obvious that the index
was an afterthought, thrown together just so they can check off "index"
in the list of tasks.

Al N1AL

On Tue, 2010-12-07 at 09:50 -0800, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

Guy, K2AV

Re: K3 (Documentation) ... a hint

In reply to this post by John Ragle

Amen to that.

One usually gets insulted disbelief when you tell them that you can't
find things in their fact assemblage. The larger and more complete
the document becomes the harder it is to find things. While as a
tool, particularly for searching around on a schematic diagram, PDF
search is EXTREMELY useful, for one who is just getting started,
EVERYONE'S "modern" manuals suffer from the SECRET WORD SYNDROME. Try
finding "load antenna" when the only term used is "antenna matching".
You have to know the exact spelling of the exact term in use by the
writer of the document in order to find the content you need.

And as just stated, writers seem to be completely convinced that
modern search field mechanisms are a satisfactory means.

A good index probably needs to be kept on line, as a specific job in a
company, and needs an employee whose prime job is to expand the "term
bank" to key to alternate terms, which actually does link to material
on line. The keeper of the index MUST NOT under any circumstances be
one of the writers. It has to be a customer facing employee, who can
consult the writers, but the writers cannot do the index and must have
zero "face" involved in what is in the index.

But I wouldn't presume to say that much of that actually exists out
there. This is an expense at a company, and it would appear that
there is little inclination to spend money for anything, particularly
in a deep recession.

73, Guy.

On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 10:41 AM, John Ragle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 12/7/2010 8:24 AM, Sam, KJ4VPI, wrote: (paraphrasing: I love books!)
>
> The list (nest?) of features hiding inside the K3 firmware is nearly
> astonishing, and quite wonderful, but I find the Users' Manual to be
> almost useless when one needs to find a specific item.
>
> The "finder" inside *.pdf readers is very limited.
>
> Instead, I rely heavily on the "Nifty Ham" accessory booklet, and it
> sits alongside my K3 in a handy spot.
>
> As a user and author of technical articles and monographs, I have always
> told my students that the key component of such is a proper index.
> Unfortunately, the art of index writing has suffered considerably at the
> hands of those who write "electronic" documents, though it still thrives
> in the Sam's and Microsoft tomes on the Windows operating systems.
>
> Word processors contain excellent facilities for building proper
> indices, though these tools are seldom used by "on-line" authors. I
> don't believe the "finders" in Acrobat (or Microsoft Word) were ever
> intended to replace indices, though there seems to be a very strong
> tendency for authors to believe that once the main object (or text) has
> been perfected, the task is finished. A "Table of Contents" is not
> enough, and one might hope that future versions of the Users' Manual
> would be more complete.
>
> I add that this complaint directed at the K3 Users' Manual is actually
> more general...try reading the ICOM manual for one of their
> transceivers, etc. ad naus. These authors deserve the digitus impudicus
> as a reward for their failed efforts. They need to learn a lesson from
> book authors!
> /
> /John Ragle -- W1ZI/
> /
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Matt Zilmer

Re: K3 (Documentation) ... a hint

In reply to this post by John Ragle

This has become a long thread. At least this branch is shorter.

As an early adopter -production kit K3/10, #24-, I agree that the K3
manual, as it is today, is probably not the best introductory material
for new K3 owners. It was quite different when the K3 was a new box.
Even though many advanced features were already incorporated and
working, there were far fewer people pleasers than is the case today.
The many specialized functions now in the K3 make it a transceiver for
"advanced amateur use", not an entry level rig. The gap from
out-of-box to fully competent is a large one for at least some
end-users, and there isn't a bridge between the two. Most companies
do this with a manual, some with tutorials, others with massive
customer support (expensive and time-consuming).

What may be needed is a use-case based guide to operations of the K3.
The user perspective could be based on type of operating (contest,
ragchew, etc.), on the mode (CW, data, SSB), with maybe an added
section on Elecraft or non-Elecraft accessories or add-ons (K144XV,
MicroHam, different types of logging or operating software, etc.).

With the relatively complex types of consumer electronics my company
produces, we try to divide manuals into four basic sections:
-Getting Started Guide
-Basic Operations
-Advanced and Specialized Operations
-Specific examples for 'how to'

Just some ideas. One approach is to use a Wiki (others have done
these), but for the specific purpose of putting together operating
concepts as above, possibly fed by the K3 community. Wayne has
already written one of these too, and it's available on the Elecraft
website. However it's a point-by-point FAQ approach, and while good
for answering specific questions by point on feature, it's not a good
general guide to using the K3.

matt W6NIA

On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 10:41:51 -0500, you wrote:

>
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

k6dgw

Re: K3 Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation)

In reply to this post by Don Cunningham

Hmmm ... I can't speak to "Another Don's" sales conjecture, but I don't
think basic tech writing skill is the root problem of this discussion.
If I know what I'm looking for, I usually find it in the downloadable
PDF manual most of the time, and it is clearly written. Nearly always,
when I can't find it, it's because it is a recent addition/change and
the PDF manual just can't keep up. On the bright side, many of the more
recent firmware upgrades have concentrated on one narrow feature set or
support for a specific hardware module, and simply pasting the relevant
part of the release notes into my station journal gives me a running
update to the PDF manual.

I think the main issue hinges on the difference between, "What can I do
with a specific feature [like APF] and how do I do it?" and "I need to
separate a discernible but unreadable signal from the noise, how do I
combine the various "features" to achieve that goal?" A professional
tech writer, whose work I admire, once told me the first was very hard
but doable. The second was just about impossible, although a lot of the
discussion on this list seems to be at least aimed toward it.

I run my K3 with AGC on [usually fast for CW, slow for SSB], RF Gain at
max, and I've been very pleased by it's performance. When I still had
my TS-850, I tried some A/B comparisons and signals I might just discern
on the 850, I could get fairly good copy on with the K3. Following some
of the discussions recently, I've experimented with what I call the
"SX-28 Method" I used nearly a lifetime ago ... AGC off, AF max, ride
the RF gain. I tried it in the Spartan Sprint last night on 40m, when
all of the signals were very weak ... so far, I think it is a hung jury.
We'll see. In the end, it appears to me that there is no substitute
for just using it and gaining experience.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2011 Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2011
- www.cqp.org

On 12/7/2010 8:52 AM, Don Cunningham wrote:
> Don,
> I wager you are underestimating. I would bet the number of additional sales
> would be 1,000+, HEAVY on the plus. Also I fear that MANY people monitor
> the noise on this list and go on to other radios after monitoring for only a
> short time.
> 73,
> Another Don, WB5HAK
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

MontyS

Re: K3 (Documentation) ... a hint

In reply to this post by Matt Zilmer

To stir the pot, how about a third menu mode aimed at getting the K3 on the air so the ham user can experiment and learn its basic features while using the radio?

Perhaps first use could be tied to the K3 Utility to help in the setup. Extended explanations could be context-sensitive in the Utility.

I have always believed a good piece of electronics can not be broken while using it as it was intended. The K3 has sure lived up to my expectations in that regard.
Monty K2DLJ

> This has become a long thread. At least this branch is shorter.
>
> As an early adopter -production kit K3/10, #24-, I agree that the K3
> manual, as it is today, is probably not the best introductory material
> for new K3 owners. It was quite different when the K3 was a new box.
> Even though many advanced features were already incorporated and
> working, there were far fewer people pleasers than is the case today.
> The many specialized functions now in the K3 make it a transceiver for
> "advanced amateur use", not an entry level rig. The gap from
> out-of-box to fully competent is a large one for at least some
> end-users, and there isn't a bridge between the two.

k5oai

Re: K3 Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation)

In reply to this post by k6dgw

one thing that would also help......
when folks explain their process,
how they got there, and what their setting are.....

they really must include the relavent settings for
AGC DCY, AGC HLD, AGC PLS, AGC SLP, AGC THR, AGC-F and AGC-S

with out these as a reference point
what ever comments are made
are so general as to mean very little
to anyone wishing to try to duplicate those results

GB & 73
K5OAI
Sam Morgan

On 12/7/2010 12:30 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

> I run my K3 with AGC on [usually fast for CW, slow for SSB], RF Gain at
> max, and I've been very pleased by it's performance. When I still had
> my TS-850, I tried some A/B comparisons and signals I might just discern
> on the 850, I could get fairly good copy on with the K3. Following some
> of the discussions recently, I've experimented with what I call the
> "SX-28 Method" I used nearly a lifetime ago ... AGC off, AF max, ride
> the RF gain. I tried it in the Spartan Sprint last night on 40m, when
> all of the signals were very weak ... so far, I think it is a hung jury.
> We'll see. In the end, it appears to me that there is no substitute
> for just using it and gaining experience.
>

Barry

Re: K3 (Documentation) ... a hint

In reply to this post by MontyS

Monty Shultes wrote

To stir the pot, how about a third menu mode aimed at getting the K3 on the air so the ham user can experiment and learn its basic features while using the radio?

Isn't that what default settings are for?

As a relatively new K3 user, I break down learning the radio into 4 levels:

Level 1 - The basics (a no-brainer). Read the quick-start section of the manual, plug in your key, mic, antenna, etc. Hit POWER, turn the big knob and away you go.

Level 2 - Get familiar with all the buttons for changing band, mode, filtering, etc. Set CMP/mic gain, Learn Slpit, SUB, RIT, etc.

Level 3 - Start customizing the radio by programming quick band/mode changes (M>V 1-0 and M1-M4), RX/TX EQ, etc. Decode and make a RTTY QSO with your paddle (amazingly cool feature).

Level 4 - Do more customizing like messing with AGC settings, programming macros, changing other Config settings. For level 4, the best resource, by far, is this forum.

I don't believe many people choose another radio because the K3 is too complicated. Many other radios are bigger, more buttons, endlessly nested menus, etc. That argument reminds me of the absurd Letter to the Editor in QST a few months ago by an idiot complaining he got his license to buy an HT for emergency use only. He had no interest in ham radio otherwise and gave up because all the HTs he looked at were too complicated for him to use (I wonder if he could use a cell phone.)

Barry W2UP

N5GE

Re: Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation)

In reply to this post by samuel ernst-fortin

Sam,

The short version of what you say below is, in my words, "If I can't carry it to
the thrown with me it's of no help."

However, it does seem that there are book sellers and writers out there that are
diligently trying to solve my problem. I love my B&N NookBook ;o) and have the
Elecraft manual PDF's loaded into it.

73,

Tom Childers
Radio Amateur N5GE
Licensed since 1976
QCWA Member 35102
ARRL Life Member

On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 05:24:56 -0800 (PST), samuel ernst-fortin
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>Personally, I like and will forever prefer books, where I can hold it or put it
>down, annotate and dog-ear and mark and flag pages, navigate it as I wish and
>see the totality of the topic subject matter, gauge it by it's physical
>dimensions. I don't find the "massively hyper-linked, ever-changing, fragmented
>and presented in many silly windows" means of communicating technical
>information nearly as effective.
>
>I prefer books. :)
>Sam, KJ4VPI

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

samuel ernst-fortin

Re: K3 Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation)

In reply to this post by k5oai

Another Sam wrote:
>>
"When folks explain their process".
>>

Ahh yes, well written. Another part of adding value is to describe technique
with what is available.

Strategies. Usage Scenarios. Methodology. Why something exists, not just the
what. Communicating intent is often omitted and it's importance
underestimated... When someone understands the why, all of a sudden the
light-bulbs illuminate.

Prescriptive information is good for somethings. Have you ever dealt with a
Helpdesk for some product and know you were working with someone that was
walking down a trouble-shooting checklist? And you know you know more about the
issue and want to short circuit that avenue? You assess early on they only know
the product at a prescriptive level?

On the other hand, having an grasp of the descriptive is quite a different story
and presents the ahh-haa moments that allows people to take things apart
(mentally) and put them back together in ways you didn't anticipate. They begin
to see relationships and different paths from where they are, to where they want
to go.

Someone else argued that to become an expert with the K3, it predominately comes
from using the equipment. That is true. In some respects, what is forgotten
there is that some of you, probably many of you have benefitted from the tribal
knowledge of being there early when it was first introduced and having been
through the iterative process of refinement and feature extension. Maybe you
remember the passionate pleas on the reflector and the responses from the
Elecraft team and other users - that they'd bring more greatness to the user
community. You probably don't need a manual. Your mental model got spooled up
over some period of time. You know better why things are the way they are an
what you can do with those things.

But asking someone to search the reflector to come to that level of
understanding and appreciation - would be ineffective.

There are those considering the rig, or coming fairly late to the party that
don't have this history. They aren't cognitively loaded when they sit down in
front of the rig with that model. They are not likely to be able to contribute
more and something fresh and innovative unless you can bring them to speed.
Their knowledge is shallow and narrow.

As if an additional usage guide, technical white paper series or instructional
DVDs weren't enough suggestions... let me stir one more time... how about an
Elecraft Remote Learning Series or Courseware via the Web? Buy a radio, attend a
quarterly held two or three day class presented by the designers on advanced
topics? OK, maybe it's a four-hour class. :) Crazy Huh? Got a lot of members?
Set up a computer and projector at someone's home... throw in some pizza and
beverages of choice. Maybe even try some hands-on exercises. Everybody gets to
learn about the latest and greatest features and hints, tips and tricks of
operating the rig presented by the gurus... those pushing the envelope of it's
capabilities.

Besides Manual as sales vehicle. Yes, yes. It most certainly is...there are MORE
ways you can bring additional value to and for the K3 community present and
future...

________________________________
From: Sam Morgan <[hidden email]>
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tue, December 7, 2010 2:17:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation)

one thing that would also help......
when folks explain their process,
how they got there, and what their setting are.....

they really must include the relavent settings for
AGC DCY, AGC HLD, AGC PLS, AGC SLP, AGC THR, AGC-F and AGC-S

with out these as a reference point
what ever comments are made
are so general as to mean very little
to anyone wishing to try to duplicate those results

GB & 73
K5OAI
Sam Morgan

On 12/7/2010 12:30 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Jim Brown-10

Re: Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation)

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

On 12/7/2010 9:16 AM, David Gilbert wrote:

> there is
> simply no question that the K3 user manual is a horrible piece of
> documentation. There is a lot of information there, but it is
> fragmented and terribly organized. I could understand how the manual
> might be weak coming out of the chute, but at this stage in the K3
> development I think there is very little excuse for such a poorly
> structured reference. Whether in printed or pdf form it's just awful,
> and I fully agree that it fails miserably as a marketing tool to attract
> potential buyers. The K3 has an unwarranted (in my opinion) reputation
> as an overly complex rig to set up and operate, but the user manual only
> accentuates that perception.

I strongly agree.

73, Jim K9YC
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

GARY-2

Re: Need for advice was; noise reduction

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Wayne,
If you don't mind I'd like to contribute to this excellent subject as well.
I'm a brand new user yet my experience with high end amateur and commercial
radios is extensive. There are a number of areas I would like to see
expanded upon, one that comes to mind is transmit and receive audio shaping.
While I don't often get to operate uninterrupted one issue I'm currently
struggling with is my receive audio on 6m FM. No matter what speaker system
I use (internal or external) the receive audio sounds over driven or over
deviating yet the same signal on other 6m transceivers sounds fine. I've
experimented a little with the audio equalizers but haven't yet resolved
that problem and am not really sure if the equalizers are the solution.

On the subject of how to package or disseminate this new operating manual it
occurs to me that while some would prefer a written manual, and I think one
should be created as well, some (including those with learning disabilities)
may prefer a computer based tutorial. In recent years a major manufacturer
of high end commercial two-way radios started supplying animated tutorials
with their programming software packages to visually and audibly teach one
how to use the software to configure their radios and these tutorials have
become quite popular. They're often segmented into subtopics making
searching rather easy. By the way, I like the idea of serving up operational
advice by mode as well. Perhaps a computer based tutorial program with K3
animation and narration would be a worthwhile project. Building such
tutorials isn't as hard as you might think either. There's a considerable
variety of development software already available.
73,
Gary
N6LRV

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 8:46 AM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Elecraft List
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Need for advice was; noise reduction

Pete,

The K3 defaults to settings that should work for most operators, and
this is reflected in many places in the owner's manual (for example,
see the first paragraph in the CONFIG Menu section, page 53). That
said, I'd like to enhance the owner's manual along the lines you
suggest.

I've already noted that I should provide advice regarding per-mode AGC
slow/fast and other AGC settings. What other areas would you like to
see additional guidance in?

73,
Wayne
N6KR

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Hardy Landskov

Re: Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation)

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Just my 2 cents on manuals. The N1MM, Logger32, Elecraft, et al all could
use improvements. My suggestion is to write comments on the sides of each
page (or somewhere), and when you think you are proficient at whatever you
are doing, send them to each institution involved (scan, Xerox, whatever).
Because they can't possiby guess at everyone's mind thinking process.
Instruction manuals need feedback all the time from the users. We the users
need to close the loop if we want the product in question to suceed.

When I first turned on the K3 after completing the kit, I said this going to
take some getting used to. The manual could have softened the blow.
73 Hardy N7RT

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation)

> On 12/7/2010 9:16 AM, David Gilbert wrote:
>> there is
>> simply no question that the K3 user manual is a horrible piece of
>> documentation. There is a lot of information there, but it is
>> fragmented and terribly organized. I could understand how the manual
>> might be weak coming out of the chute, but at this stage in the K3
>> development I think there is very little excuse for such a poorly
>> structured reference. Whether in printed or pdf form it's just awful,
>> and I fully agree that it fails miserably as a marketing tool to attract
>> potential buyers. The K3 has an unwarranted (in my opinion) reputation
>> as an overly complex rig to set up and operate, but the user manual only
>> accentuates that perception.
>
> I strongly agree.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation)

In reply to this post by samuel ernst-fortin

> Someone else argued that to become an expert with the K3, it
> predominately comesfrom using the equipment. That is true. In
> some respects, what is forgotten there is that some of you,
> probably many of you have benefitted from the tribal knowledge
> of being there early when it was first introduced and having
> been through the iterative process of refinement and feature
> extension. Maybe you remember the passionate pleas on the
> reflector and the responses from the Elecraft team and other
> users - that they'd bring more greatness to the user community.
> You probably don't need a manual. Your mental model got spooled
> up over some period of time. You know better why things are the
> way they are and what you can do with those things.

I need to disagree with the emotion expressed here. While having
been present early on may provide some insight into *why* things
are as they are, it *in no way* provides any added insight into
*how* things work or the best way to use the available tools in
the K3.

Just as an old-time DXer can tall the new kid on the block that
some stations work "split" nobody can provide a newly minted no-
code Extra knowledge and skill to actually copy the DX station
so he knows who the station worked, find that station in the
pile-up, learn the DX's operating habits - is he taking tail-
enders on his listening frequency, is he moving by a fixed step
between callers, is he moving at random, etc. Nobody can teach
someone who doesn't know how to zero beat how to zero beat ...
all of those things are SKILLS learned from doing not reading
a book.

The old joke: Q - "how do I get to Carnegie Hall?"
A - Practice, Practice, Practice!" Is never more true than
with any advanced transceiver. The manual can provide (and the
K3 manual does) the details of what a control does but it can
not and should not be expected to anticipate every possible
way and circumstance under which a control might be used.

The "I don't need to practice, I just bought this expensive
Stradivarius, it should make me a star" attitude is pervasive
in society today ... even to those who think that failures
in the education system can't be due to the student who will
not pay attention or study but must be due to teachers who
are failing to "teach."

Even a poorly written equipment manual (and Elecraft's are
by no means poorly written) generally has enough information
to operate the equipment. No matter how simple or complex
the equipment, it is up to the user to learn how to use the
equipment, it is not the job of the equipment, manufacturer,
or dealer to think for the user.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 12/7/2010 7:47 PM, samuel ernst-fortin wrote:

> Another Sam wrote:
>>>
> "When folks explain their process".
>>>
>
> Ahh yes, well written. Another part of adding value is to describe technique
> with what is available.
>
> Strategies. Usage Scenarios. Methodology. Why something exists, not just the
> what. Communicating intent is often omitted and it's importance
> underestimated... When someone understands the why, all of a sudden the
> light-bulbs illuminate.
>
> Prescriptive information is good for somethings. Have you ever dealt with a
> Helpdesk for some product and know you were working with someone that was
> walking down a trouble-shooting checklist? And you know you know more about the
> issue and want to short circuit that avenue? You assess early on they only know
> the product at a prescriptive level?
>
> On the other hand, having an grasp of the descriptive is quite a different story
> and presents the ahh-haa moments that allows people to take things apart
> (mentally) and put them back together in ways you didn't anticipate. They begin
> to see relationships and different paths from where they are, to where they want
> to go.
>
> Someone else argued that to become an expert with the K3, it predominately comes
> from using the equipment. That is true. In some respects, what is forgotten
> there is that some of you, probably many of you have benefitted from the tribal
> knowledge of being there early when it was first introduced and having been
> through the iterative process of refinement and feature extension. Maybe you
> remember the passionate pleas on the reflector and the responses from the
> Elecraft team and other users - that they'd bring more greatness to the user
> community. You probably don't need a manual. Your mental model got spooled up
> over some period of time. You know better why things are the way they are an
> what you can do with those things.
>
> But asking someone to search the reflector to come to that level of
> understanding and appreciation - would be ineffective.
>
> There are those considering the rig, or coming fairly late to the party that
> don't have this history. They aren't cognitively loaded when they sit down in
> front of the rig with that model. They are not likely to be able to contribute
> more and something fresh and innovative unless you can bring them to speed.
> Their knowledge is shallow and narrow.
>
> As if an additional usage guide, technical white paper series or instructional
> DVDs weren't enough suggestions... let me stir one more time... how about an
> Elecraft Remote Learning Series or Courseware via the Web? Buy a radio, attend a
> quarterly held two or three day class presented by the designers on advanced
> topics? OK, maybe it's a four-hour class. :) Crazy Huh? Got a lot of members?
> Set up a computer and projector at someone's home... throw in some pizza and
> beverages of choice. Maybe even try some hands-on exercises. Everybody gets to
> learn about the latest and greatest features and hints, tips and tricks of
> operating the rig presented by the gurus... those pushing the envelope of it's
> capabilities.
>
> Besides Manual as sales vehicle. Yes, yes. It most certainly is...there are MORE
> ways you can bring additional value to and for the K3 community present and
> future...
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Sam Morgan<[hidden email]>
> To: "[hidden email]"<[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tue, December 7, 2010 2:17:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation)
>
>
> one thing that would also help......
> when folks explain their process,
> how they got there, and what their setting are.....
>
> they really must include the relavent settings for
> AGC DCY, AGC HLD, AGC PLS, AGC SLP, AGC THR, AGC-F and AGC-S
>
> with out these as a reference point
> what ever comments are made
> are so general as to mean very little
> to anyone wishing to try to duplicate those results
>
> GB& 73
> K5OAI
> Sam Morgan
>
> On 12/7/2010 12:30 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>
>> I run my K3 with AGC on [usually fast for CW, slow for SSB], RF Gain at
>> max, and I've been very pleased by it's performance. When I still had
>> my TS-850, I tried some A/B comparisons and signals I might just discern
>> on the 850, I could get fairly good copy on with the K3. Following some
>> of the discussions recently, I've experimented with what I call the
>> "SX-28 Method" I used nearly a lifetime ago ... AGC off, AF max, ride
>> the RF gain. I tried it in the Spartan Sprint last night on 40m, when
>> all of the signals were very weak ... so far, I think it is a hung jury.
>> We'll see. In the end, it appears to me that there is no substitute
>> for just using it and gaining experience.
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Eric Manning

Re: [K3] Need for advice was; noise reduction

In reply to this post by Pete Smith N4ZR

While we're on the topic, I would really like to have a text describing
the design of the K3,
an aid in understanding what the components do, the design choices and
why they were made, WHY modules were designed the way that they were,
and HOW they work at the component or group of components level.

Something more detailed than the very sketchy "how it works" piece in
the Owner's manual, but less detailed than the schematics - a document
which I could read while staring at the schematics, which would help me
understand why the circuits were designed the way they were and how they
work.

Yes, it would likely be at least 100 pages, but . . .

Bring It On! [ G W Bush]

Elliot Organick wrote a similar piece [ a book] about the Multics
Operating System [the Mother of Unix, in a way]
and it was very valuable.

Eric
Va7DZ

--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Eric Manning

Re: [K3] Need for advice was; noise reduction

Dear Joe

With respect, it seems to me that the secret sauce in the K3 is largely
in the FIRMWARE, which is why I carefully avoided
even mentioning it, let alone asking for descriptive material on it.

[ I agree that Elecraft would be nuts to publish
the firmware in human-readable form, and I trust that developing same
from the bit strings in ROM is
too expensive to tempt the competitors to do so. Besides, competitors
would have to sell K3 or K3 superset hardware to
make direct use of it. I also trust that Elecraft has filed patents on
the appropriate items, and will defend them vigorously.]

If much of the proprietary advantage lay in the HARDWARE, would Elecraft
publish a complete set of schematics?
They would not. [Fault diagnosis would be done entirely by Don and Scott
telling us to measure voltage X at pin Y.]
As you noted, a set of schematics, plus a working K3, plus a
half-decent lab,
is all that a good electronics/rf engineer would need to develop the
'what' and 'how' information which I mentioned.
So, the information you are worried about is already out there.
Finally, Wayne & Eric would, I'm sure, keep mum
about any really subtle, obscure yet critical bits of design.

The text would just make it easier or possible for us amateurs to
understand the design, and more important, the design
choices, why the K3 was designed the way it was.

BTW, I think that seminars at Pacificon might be an even better way to
give us this insight, as one of the Sams proposed.

73

Eric
VA7DZ

The On 07/12/10 9:54 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>
>>> While we're on the topic, I would really like to have a text
>>> describing the design of the K3, an aid in understanding what the
>>> components do, the design choices and why they were made, WHY
>>> modules were designed the way that they were, and HOW they work at
>>> the component or group of components level.
>
> This is absurd! Much of what you are asking for falls in the
> category of "trade secrets." Why certain design decisions were
> made and how specific circuits work are often key items of
> competitive advantage. A competent RF designer may be able
> to reverse engineer the circuit board or schematic and get a
> reasonable idea of how something works and maybe guess the
> reason for key design choices but why should Wayne "give away"
> his secrets?
>
> Nikon doesn't provide schematics, circuit descriptions and
> design process summaries with its digital cameras. Even if
> that information would somehow be useful to the user, it would
> never be released as Panasonic or Canon or Olympus or Sony
> could easily use that information to their competitive advantage.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
> On 12/8/2010 12:15 AM, eric manning wrote:
>> While we're on the topic, I would really like to have a text describing
>> the design of the K3,
>> an aid in understanding what the components do, the design choices and
>> why they were made, WHY modules were designed the way that they were,
>> and HOW they work at the component or group of components level.
>>
>> Something more detailed than the very sketchy "how it works" piece in
>> the Owner's manual, but less detailed than the schematics - a document
>> which I could read while staring at the schematics, which would help me
>> understand why the circuits were designed the way they were and how they
>> work.
>>
>> Yes, it would likely be at least 100 pages, but . . .
>>
>> Bring It On! [ G W Bush]
>>
>> Elliot Organick wrote a similar piece [ a book] about the Multics
>> Operating System [the Mother of Unix, in a way]
>> and it was very valuable.
>>
>> Eric
>> Va7DZ
>>
>

--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

N5GE

Re: [K3] Need for advice was; noise reduction

Each new version of the firmware (including beta versions) comes with a
description of the changes made. In fact the document included describes each
change that the update includes dating back to MCU 1.65 and DSP 1.52, 1-28-08.
You don't have to ask for it. The file name is hfwnotes.rtf and you can find it
at the URL below...

ftp://ftp.elecraft.com

What else do you want to know about the firmware that isn't proprietary?

73,

Tom Childers
Radio Amateur N5GE
Licensed since 1976
QCWA Member 35102
ARRL Life Member

On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 07:47:03 -0800, eric manning <[hidden email]>
wrote:

[snip]
>With respect, it seems to me that the secret sauce in the K3 is largely
>in the FIRMWARE, which is why I carefully avoided
>even mentioning it, let alone asking for descriptive material on it.
[snip]

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

Gary Gregory

Re: [K3] Need for advice was; noise reduction

Perhaps the small group seeking insights into the design of the K3 could
show us all where this information has been supplied by Y,K & Y etc?

I am sure it is not high on Elecraft's list of 'things to do' and so it may
be quite a while before the information you seek is released.

Already the competitors have sat up and taken notice of just how good the K3
has become and are now scrambling to bring products out that can offer
competing specifications.

Just my 2 cents worth...keep the change :-)

73's
Gary

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 3:20 AM, Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
<[hidden email]>wrote:

>
> Each new version of the firmware (including beta versions) comes with a
> description of the changes made. In fact the document included describes
> each
> change that the update includes dating back to MCU 1.65 and DSP 1.52,
> 1-28-08.
> You don't have to ask for it. The file name is hfwnotes.rtf and you can
> find it
> at the URL below...
>
> ftp://ftp.elecraft.com
>
> What else do you want to know about the firmware that isn't proprietary?
>
> 73,
>
> Tom Childers
> Radio Amateur N5GE
> Licensed since 1976
> QCWA Member 35102
> ARRL Life Member
>
>
> On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 07:47:03 -0800, eric manning <
> [hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> [snip]
> >With respect, it seems to me that the secret sauce in the K3 is largely
> >in the FIRMWARE, which is why I carefully avoided
> >even mentioning it, let alone asking for descriptive material on it.
> [snip]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

--
Gary
VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile
http://www.qsl.net/vk4fd/
K3 #679, P3 #546
For everything else there's Mastercard!!!
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

123