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MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one yet?

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Jeff Cochrane - VK4XA

MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one yet?

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Phil Wheeler-2

Re: MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one yet?

I'd be very afraid, Jeff.

Phil W7OX

On 5/11/15 4:58 PM, Jeff Cochrane - VK4XA wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> I've just been looking at the latest MFJ catalog and I noticed that they
> list a MFJ 905K3 Internal ATU + second antenna port.
> Has anyone had a play yet?
> I'd be interested in your opinions.
>
> 73 de
> Jeff Cochrane - VK4XA

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Gary Gregory-2

Re: MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one yet?

Me too.....eyes rolling....!!!!!

Gary
Vk1ZZ
K3, KPA500-FT, KAT500-FT
On 12/05/2015 10:21 AM, "Phil Wheeler" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'd be very afraid, Jeff.
>
> Phil W7OX
>
> On 5/11/15 4:58 PM, Jeff Cochrane - VK4XA wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>> I've just been looking at the latest MFJ catalog and I noticed that they
>> list a MFJ 905K3 Internal ATU + second antenna port.
>> Has anyone had a play yet?
>> I'd be interested in your opinions.
>>
>> 73 de
>> Jeff Cochrane - VK4XA
>>
>
>
>
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Jeff Cochrane - VK4XA

Re: MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one yet?

In reply to this post by Phil Wheeler-2

CONTENTS DELETED

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Vic Rosenthal

Re: MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one yet?

As W4TV said, the tuning algorithm is in the K3 firmware. It is not part of the tuner. Elecraft provides its firmware, including ongoing updates, at no extra cost. It pays its firmware developers out of money it makes selling hardware.

Now someone has come along selling hardware that makes use of the firmware that they didn't develop or pay for. Illegal? No. Unethical? We could debate it all day. The analogy of the IBM PC clone and DOS comes to mind.

But personally I wouldn't buy one.

Vic 4X6GP/K2VCO

> On May 12, 2015, at 6:18 AM, Jeff Cochrane - VK4XA <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Agreed Phil,
> I am not considering purchasing one of the MFJ units, I simply saw it in the
> latest MFJ catalogue that has just been released and I am curious as to why
> they made it, given that the Elecraft product is so good. :D
>
> Maybe they think that they'll sell a heap of them due to the substantially
> lower price? (About US$90 off the current Elecraft KAT3 kit price)
>
> I have noticed that it can *only* tune a 10:1 SWR (Which is in itself quite
> good for an internal tuner I think) but I know for a fact that the Elecraft
> KAT3 can do even better than that.
>
> My current K3 (It's my second K3) has no internal tuner, nor does it need
> one as I use either a resonant antenna or a remote tuner and a single wire
> antenna exclusively.
>
> A second antenna port would be a wonderful option for my radio but I surely
> don't need to expense of an ATU just to get it.
>
> All we need to do is to convince Eric and Wayne that we Elecraft K3
> operators would REALLY like to have a second antenna port option WITHOUT the
> internal tuner. :D
>
> Jeff Cochrane - VK4XA
>

Wes (N7WS)

Re: MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one yet?

I guess none of you guys know how the K2 wound up having a DSP in it.

I won't buy one either, but them I don't want the Elecraft version either since
I have a KAT500.

Wes N7WS

On 5/11/2015 8:50 PM, Vic Rosenthal wrote:
> As W4TV said, the tuning algorithm is in the K3 firmware. It is not part of the tuner. Elecraft provides its firmware, including ongoing updates, at no extra cost. It pays its firmware developers out of money it makes selling hardware.
>
> Now someone has come along selling hardware that makes use of the firmware that they didn't develop or pay for. Illegal? No. Unethical? We could debate it all day. The analogy of the IBM PC clone and DOS comes to mind.
>
> But personally I wouldn't buy one.
>
> Vic 4X6GP/K2VCO
>
>

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k6dgw

Re: MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one yet?

My K2 doesn't have the DSP option and it works just fine. I'll bite ...
how did the K2 DSP option happen?

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
- www.cqp.org

On 5/12/2015 5:35 AM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:
> I guess none of you guys know how the K2 wound up having a DSP in it.

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one yet?

I know that answer - Lyle Johnson K7PP wanted a DSP in his K2 - he was
the designer of the DSPx module which is the upper board.
Lyle was not an Elecraft employee at that time.
He reverse engineered the AUXBUS communications sufficiently to support
an interface between his board and the K2 control board.
As I understand it, that initial DSP implementation was for Lyle's own
use. He later presented it to Elecraft and it was adopted as an
Elecraft option. Lyle did not sell the KDSP2 independently.
The difference between the KDSP2 and the MFJ tuner is that MFJ is
independently selling an internal K3 "option" It is an aftermarket
option and will not be supported by Elecraft.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 5/12/2015 2:13 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

> My K2 doesn't have the DSP option and it works just fine. I'll bite
> ... how did the K2 DSP option happen?
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
> - www.cqp.org
>
> On 5/12/2015 5:35 AM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:
>> I guess none of you guys know how the K2 wound up having a DSP in it.
>

Wes (N7WS)

Re: MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one yet?

In reply to this post by k6dgw

Lyle??

On May 12, 2015, at 11:13 AM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> My K2 doesn't have the DSP option and it works just fine. I'll bite ... how did the K2 DSP option happen?
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
> - www.cqp.org
>
> On 5/12/2015 5:35 AM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:
>> I guess none of you guys know how the K2 wound up having a DSP

k6dgw

Re: MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one yet?

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Thanks Don, did not know that. I guess the "ethical" line is somewhat
vague. Designing and marketing an external accessory that uses the band
outputs, or the published list of commands for the serial port happens a
lot and is just fine, the interface is published and supported by Elecraft

I believe the KAT3 tuning algorithms are contained in the K3 firmware
which Elecraft does not disclose, so the MFJ gizmo must have begun with
a reverse engineering effort, always a very dicey undertaking under the
best of conditions. The proprietary firmware is subject to change at
any time at Elecraft's discretion. The MFJ thing is not the least bit
appealing to me.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
- www.cqp.org

On 5/12/2015 1:35 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> I know that answer - Lyle Johnson K7PP wanted a DSP in his K2 - he was
> the designer of the DSPx module which is the upper board.
> Lyle was not an Elecraft employee at that time.
> He reverse engineered the AUXBUS communications sufficiently to support
> an interface between his board and the K2 control board.
> As I understand it, that initial DSP implementation was for Lyle's own
> use. He later presented it to Elecraft and it was adopted as an
> Elecraft option. Lyle did not sell the KDSP2 independently.
> The difference between the KDSP2 and the MFJ tuner is that MFJ is
> independently selling an internal K3 "option" It is an aftermarket
> option and will not be supported by Elecraft.

Bruce Beford-4

Re: MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one yet?

In reply to this post by Jeff Cochrane - VK4XA

Wes wrote:
>Lyle??

You must be fairly "new around here..."
Lyle Johnson, KK7P- Amsat, Elecraft, openHPSDR, etc... DSP
programmer/designer extraordinaire.
Bruce N1RX

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one yet?

In reply to this post by k6dgw

On 2015-05-12 5:45 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
> I believe the KAT3 tuning algorithms are contained in the K3
> firmware which Elecraft does not disclose, so the MFJ gizmo must have
> begun with a reverse engineering effort, always a very dicey
> undertaking under the best of conditions.

Nothing dicey about it ... MFJ doesn't even need to know anything
about the tuning algorithms or controls. The K3 CPU controls both
the tuner L/C values and the antenna selection via a serial bus
and series of serial to parallel shift registers/latches. The only
"engineering" MFJ needed to do was copy Elecraft's KAT3 schematic.
The only "value engineering" is to do what Elecraft does at lower
production costs and perhaps loser cost parts.

The real question is the ethics (and legality) of copying Elecraft's
schematic. The only way the MFJ tuner works properly is if it copies
the L/C values and controls exactly.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

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Phil Wheeler-2

Re: MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one yet?

Joe,

Re "perhaps loser cost parts": A Freudian typo? :-)

Phil W7OX

On 5/12/15 4:25 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

> On 2015-05-12 5:45 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>> I believe the KAT3 tuning algorithms are
>> contained in the K3
>> firmware which Elecraft does not disclose, so
>> the MFJ gizmo must have
>> begun with a reverse engineering effort, always
>> a very dicey
>> undertaking under the best of conditions.
>
> Nothing dicey about it ... MFJ doesn't even need
> to know anything
> about the tuning algorithms or controls. The K3
> CPU controls both
> the tuner L/C values and the antenna selection
> via a serial bus
> and series of serial to parallel shift
> registers/latches. The only
> "engineering" MFJ needed to do was copy
> Elecraft's KAT3 schematic.
> The only "value engineering" is to do what
> Elecraft does at lower
> production costs and perhaps loser cost parts.
>
> The real question is the ethics (and legality)
> of copying Elecraft's
> schematic. The only way the MFJ tuner works
> properly is if it copies
> the L/C values and controls exactly.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV

W1KSZ

Re: MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one yet?

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Aren't you guys through yet with the MFJ bashing ?? There's a Yahoo Group
for that, if you insist.

73, Dick, W1KSZ

On 5/12/2015 4:25 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

> On 2015-05-12 5:45 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>> I believe the KAT3 tuning algorithms are contained in the K3
>> firmware which Elecraft does not disclose, so the MFJ gizmo must have
>> begun with a reverse engineering effort, always a very dicey
>> undertaking under the best of conditions.
>
> Nothing dicey about it ... MFJ doesn't even need to know anything
> about the tuning algorithms or controls. The K3 CPU controls both
> the tuner L/C values and the antenna selection via a serial bus
> and series of serial to parallel shift registers/latches. The only
> "engineering" MFJ needed to do was copy Elecraft's KAT3 schematic.
> The only "value engineering" is to do what Elecraft does at lower
> production costs and perhaps loser cost parts.
>
> The real question is the ethics (and legality) of copying Elecraft's
> schematic. The only way the MFJ tuner works properly is if it copies
> the L/C values and controls exactly.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Wes (N7WS)

Re: MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one yet?

In reply to this post by Bruce Beford-4

No, I'm not new. I've known Lyle longer than I can remember. I was offering him first crack at telling the story. Don jumped in before he or I could relate it.

On May 12, 2015, at 3:52 PM, "Bruce Beford" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Wes wrote:
>> Lyle??
>
> You must be fairly "new around here..."
> Lyle Johnson, KK7P- Amsat, Elecraft, openHPSDR, etc... DSP
> programmer/designer extraordinaire.
> Bruce N1RX
>
>
>
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riese-k3djc

Re: MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one yet?

In reply to this post by Jeff Cochrane - VK4XA

On Tue, 12 May 2015 17:20:50 -0700 Richard Solomon <[hidden email]>
writes:
> Aren't you guys through yet with the MFJ bashing ?? There's a Yahoo
> Group
> for that, if you insist.
>
> 73, Dick, W1KSZ
>

Many years ago ,, many I bought the MFJ antenna analyzer, has worked
flawlessly
and other than replacing the battery holder I have no problems with the
unit
works well for HF and have used it to preset tuners ETC

well I did just spray the switches with Deoxit,,,

Bob K3DJC

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Fred Townsend-2

Re: MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one yet?

In reply to this post by Jeff Cochrane - VK4XA

Yes I am absolutely sure. If patented there must be a patent notice. I see none.
As far a being a big seller think about it. The next firmware
change from Elecraft could contain a clone detector and shut down operation if it sees a clone. The user would need to remove the clone to resume operation. The user would be out whatever they paid for the clone hardware. The mere thought of such an occurrence would reduce the resale value too. Where is the bargain in that?

Patents are a sticky wicket that can down a small company in litigation costs. A patent is a license to sue or be sued. Many companies prefer to use copyrights. They last longer and do not require any novelty claims. This doesn't always work either. Recall the first IBM clone computers. IBM's BIOS said 'copyright IBM'. Their OS would look for the 'IBM' when booting so the clone BIOS said 'compatible with IBM'. The OS saw the 'IBM' and booted.

Spy vrs Spy.

Fred, AE6QL
-----Original Message-----
>From: Brian Hemmis <[hidden email]>
>Sent: May 12, 2015 5:29 PM
>To: Fred Townsend <[hidden email]>
>Cc: Phil Wheeler <[hidden email]>, Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one yet?
>
>Fred, Are you sure about the design not being patented (I have no clue about this stuff) ? Ethics (or lack of) are exactly what I was speaking about…
>Somehow I don’t see this tuner being a big seller. People who purchase high end products like the K3 aren’t about to skimp on unknown products from manufacturers known for producing generally lower end items.

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bhemmis

Re: MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one yet?

Great points, Fred. Tnx for the clarification. This will be interesting as it plays out :-)
73, Brian USC

> On May 12, 2015, at 8:58 PM, Fred Townsend <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Yes I am absolutely sure. If patented there must be a patent notice. I see none.
> As far a being a big seller think about it. The next firmware
> change from Elecraft could contain a clone detector and shut down operation if it sees a clone. The user would need to remove the clone to resume operation. The user would be out whatever they paid for the clone hardware. The mere thought of such an occurrence would reduce the resale value too. Where is the bargain in that?
>
> Patents are a sticky wicket that can down a small company in litigation costs. A patent is a license to sue or be sued. Many companies prefer to use copyrights. They last longer and do not require any novelty claims. This doesn't always work either. Recall the first IBM clone computers. IBM's BIOS said 'copyright IBM'. Their OS would look for the 'IBM' when booting so the clone BIOS said 'compatible with IBM'. The OS saw the 'IBM' and booted.
>
> Spy vrs Spy.
>
> Fred, AE6QL
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Brian Hemmis <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: May 12, 2015 5:29 PM
>> To: Fred Townsend <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: Phil Wheeler <[hidden email]>, Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one yet?
>>
>> Fred, Are you sure about the design not being patented (I have no clue about this stuff) ? Ethics (or lack of) are exactly what I was speaking about…
>> Somehow I don’t see this tuner being a big seller. People who purchase high end products like the K3 aren’t about to skimp on unknown products from manufacturers known for producing generally lower end items.
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one yet?

In reply to this post by W1KSZ

Who is MFJ bashing? I'm merely analyzing their offering ... It's not
rocket science and anyone who bothers to look at the *published*
schematics for the KAT3 can see how to clone it.

If I were Elecraft I'd get an MFJ tuner, see if there is a way to
detect the difference between it an an authentic KAT3 and update
the K3 firmware to disable the MFJ clone.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2015-05-12 8:20 PM, Richard Solomon wrote:

> Aren't you guys through yet with the MFJ bashing ?? There's a Yahoo Group
> for that, if you insist.
>
> 73, Dick, W1KSZ
>
> On 5/12/2015 4:25 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>> On 2015-05-12 5:45 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>>> I believe the KAT3 tuning algorithms are contained in the K3
>>> firmware which Elecraft does not disclose, so the MFJ gizmo must have
>>> begun with a reverse engineering effort, always a very dicey
>>> undertaking under the best of conditions.
>>
>> Nothing dicey about it ... MFJ doesn't even need to know anything
>> about the tuning algorithms or controls. The K3 CPU controls both
>> the tuner L/C values and the antenna selection via a serial bus
>> and series of serial to parallel shift registers/latches. The only
>> "engineering" MFJ needed to do was copy Elecraft's KAT3 schematic.
>> The only "value engineering" is to do what Elecraft does at lower
>> production costs and perhaps loser cost parts.
>>
>> The real question is the ethics (and legality) of copying Elecraft's
>> schematic. The only way the MFJ tuner works properly is if it copies
>> the L/C values and controls exactly.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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jeff stai-2

Re: MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one yet?

In reply to this post by bhemmis

Being cloned? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. This checkbox
had to be on Eric's list of goals especially considering his career prior
to Elecraft. ;) congratulations! 73 jeff wk6i

On Tuesday, May 12, 2015, Brian Hemmis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Great points, Fred. Tnx for the clarification. This will be interesting as
> it plays out :-)
> 73, Brian USC
> > On May 12, 2015, at 8:58 PM, Fred Townsend <[hidden email]
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Yes I am absolutely sure. If patented there must be a patent notice. I
> see none.
> > As far a being a big seller think about it. The next firmware
> > change from Elecraft could contain a clone detector and shut down
> operation if it sees a clone. The user would need to remove the clone to
> resume operation. The user would be out whatever they paid for the clone
> hardware. The mere thought of such an occurrence would reduce the resale
> value too. Where is the bargain in that?
> >
> > Patents are a sticky wicket that can down a small company in litigation
> costs. A patent is a license to sue or be sued. Many companies prefer to
> use copyrights. They last longer and do not require any novelty claims.
> This doesn't always work either. Recall the first IBM clone computers.
> IBM's BIOS said 'copyright IBM'. Their OS would look for the 'IBM' when
> booting so the clone BIOS said 'compatible with IBM'. The OS saw the 'IBM'
> and booted.
> >
> > Spy vrs Spy.
> >
> > Fred, AE6QL
> > -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Brian Hemmis <[hidden email] <javascript:;>>
> >> Sent: May 12, 2015 5:29 PM
> >> To: Fred Townsend <[hidden email] <javascript:;>>
> >> Cc: Phil Wheeler <[hidden email] <javascript:;>>, Elecraft
> Reflector <[hidden email] <javascript:;>>
> >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] MFJ's new Internal K3 Tuner, anyone tried one
> yet?
> >>
> >> Fred, Are you sure about the design not being patented (I have no clue
> about this stuff) ? Ethics (or lack of) are exactly what I was speaking
> about…
> >> Somehow I don’t see this tuner being a big seller. People who purchase
> high end products like the K3 aren’t about to skimp on unknown products
> from manufacturers known for producing generally lower end items.
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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