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[OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

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mikerodgerske5gbc

[OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

Did anyone see or turn knobs on the proposed FTDX-3000?
Did Kenwood have the rumored new
Hf rig?

Thanks
Mike R

Play me some fiddle, but no stinkin' violin!

Amateur/Ham Radio KE5GBC
HF & Echolink mobile
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Dave wo2x

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

They had brochures on the 3000 but no radio on display. Looks like same size
and form as the Icom 7600.

Kenwood had a mockup of the new TS-990. Back connections were covered and
not visible. Front display was showing a photo and was not a working radio.
According to Kenwood the hardware design is just about finished but firmware
has a long way to go. They are hoping for FCC cert in August and shipping
around November. (They didn't say what year!) Price is between $5k and $10k.

Flex is releasing the new 6500 and 6700 radios. Again, mockups and not
operational at Dayton. Price on 6500 is $3900 and 6700 around $7k

Dave
wo2x

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Rodgers
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 11:25 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

Did anyone see or turn knobs on the proposed FTDX-3000?
Did Kenwood have the rumored new
Hf rig?

Thanks
Mike R

Play me some fiddle, but no stinkin' violin!

Amateur/Ham Radio KE5GBC
HF & Echolink mobile
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Scott Manthe-2

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

In reply to this post by mikerodgerske5gbc

I saw the Kenwood TS-990. It is a big, big radio, with over 140 buttons
and knobs, but it looks a bit like a piece of A/V equipment. It'd be
interesting to see exactly how much empty space is inside. I passed by
the Yaesu booth on the way to the Elecraft booth and saw the FT-3000.
Nice looking rig, but has no second receiver, so whats the point?

73,
Scott, N9AA

On 5/21/12 11:25 AM, Mike Rodgers wrote:

> Did anyone see or turn knobs on the proposed FTDX-3000?
> Did Kenwood have the rumored new
> Hf rig?
>
> Thanks
> Mike R
>
> Play me some fiddle, but no stinkin' violin!
>
> Amateur/Ham Radio KE5GBC
> HF& Echolink mobile
>
>

Jim-3

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

In reply to this post by Dave wo2x

Yaesu did have an FT-3000 under glass on the same side where the hats are given out. The scope appeared more real time (faster) verses the 5000 and 9000. Nice looking rig. Hopefully it will perform well. Single receiver.

KE4WY Jim

Sent from my Ipod

On May 21, 2012, at 11:37 AM, Dave <[hidden email]> wrote:

> They had brochures on the 3000 but no radio on display. Looks like same size
> and form as the Icom 7600.
>
> Kenwood had a mockup of the new TS-990. Back connections were covered and
> not visible. Front display was showing a photo and was not a working radio.
> According to Kenwood the hardware design is just about finished but firmware
> has a long way to go. They are hoping for FCC cert in August and shipping
> around November. (They didn't say what year!) Price is between $5k and $10k.
>
> Flex is releasing the new 6500 and 6700 radios. Again, mockups and not
> operational at Dayton. Price on 6500 is $3900 and 6700 around $7k
>
> Dave
> wo2x
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Rodgers
> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 11:25 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?
>
> Did anyone see or turn knobs on the proposed FTDX-3000?
> Did Kenwood have the rumored new
> Hf rig?
>
> Thanks
> Mike R
>
> Play me some fiddle, but no stinkin' violin!
>
> Amateur/Ham Radio KE5GBC
> HF & Echolink mobile
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Dave wo2x

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

Thanks Jim,
Guess I missed it.

Good to see new HF radios coming out. Competition is good for the consumer!

Dave
wo2x

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 11:44 AM
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

Yaesu did have an FT-3000 under glass on the same side where the hats are
given out. The scope appeared more real time (faster) verses the 5000 and
9000. Nice looking rig. Hopefully it will perform well. Single receiver.

KE4WY Jim

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

In reply to this post by Dave wo2x

> Flex is releasing the new 6500 and 6700 radios. Again, mockups and not
> operational at Dayton. Price on 6500 is $3900 and 6700 around $7k

Where did you see $3900 for the Flex 6500? I was told $5995 for the
"single front end" radio and $7999 for the dual front end radio. That
doesn't include a high end computer with multiple displays and a $200
per year software license fee.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 5/21/2012 11:37 AM, Dave wrote:

> They had brochures on the 3000 but no radio on display. Looks like same size
> and form as the Icom 7600.
>
> Kenwood had a mockup of the new TS-990. Back connections were covered and
> not visible. Front display was showing a photo and was not a working radio.
> According to Kenwood the hardware design is just about finished but firmware
> has a long way to go. They are hoping for FCC cert in August and shipping
> around November. (They didn't say what year!) Price is between $5k and $10k.
>
> Flex is releasing the new 6500 and 6700 radios. Again, mockups and not
> operational at Dayton. Price on 6500 is $3900 and 6700 around $7k
>
> Dave
> wo2x
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Rodgers
> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 11:25 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?
>
> Did anyone see or turn knobs on the proposed FTDX-3000?
> Did Kenwood have the rumored new
> Hf rig?
>
> Thanks
> Mike R
>
> Play me some fiddle, but no stinkin' violin!
>
> Amateur/Ham Radio KE5GBC
> HF& Echolink mobile
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

wb4jfi

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

Joe, if you go to the Flex on-line store, you will see the 6500 is $3,999,
which I reported in an earlier email. Yes, that does NOT include the
computer or the software "fee". Given the amount of processing done inside
the 6000 series, except for requiring gig-e, I'm not sure that a honking
computer is required.

BTW, you really need to research DDCs. Previous comments about signals
combining exponentially seems a little off. I think the military and other
users (including Quicksilver, HPSDR, HiQSDR, and SDR-IQ users) might be
slightly surprised by that math.

>From a K3 lover, and not necessarily a Flex lover, but in the interest of
"balance".
73
Terry, WB4JFI

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 1:03 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

> Flex is releasing the new 6500 and 6700 radios. Again, mockups and not
> operational at Dayton. Price on 6500 is $3900 and 6700 around $7k

Where did you see $3900 for the Flex 6500? I was told $5995 for the
"single front end" radio and $7999 for the dual front end radio. That
doesn't include a high end computer with multiple displays and a $200
per year software license fee.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 5/21/2012 11:37 AM, Dave wrote:

> They had brochures on the 3000 but no radio on display. Looks like same
> size
> and form as the Icom 7600.
>
> Kenwood had a mockup of the new TS-990. Back connections were covered and
> not visible. Front display was showing a photo and was not a working
> radio.
> According to Kenwood the hardware design is just about finished but
> firmware
> has a long way to go. They are hoping for FCC cert in August and shipping
> around November. (They didn't say what year!) Price is between $5k and
> $10k.
>
> Flex is releasing the new 6500 and 6700 radios. Again, mockups and not
> operational at Dayton. Price on 6500 is $3900 and 6700 around $7k
>
> Dave
> wo2x
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Rodgers
> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 11:25 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?
>
> Did anyone see or turn knobs on the proposed FTDX-3000?
> Did Kenwood have the rumored new
> Hf rig?
>
> Thanks
> Mike R
>
> Play me some fiddle, but no stinkin' violin!
>
> Amateur/Ham Radio KE5GBC
> HF& Echolink mobile
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

> Given the amount of processing done inside the 6000 series, except
> for requiring gig-e, I'm not sure that a honking computer is
> required.

For maximum use, one will probably need a multiple display system -
or multiple computers for "radio" plus logger. Not something one
can do with a $699 Mac Mini.

> BTW, you really need to research DDCs. Previous comments about
> signals combining exponentially seems a little off. I think the
> military and other users (including Quicksilver, HPSDR, HiQSDR, and
> SDR-IQ users) might be slightly surprised by that math.

Do the math with multiple S9+20 (-53 dBm) to S9+40 (-33 dBm) signals
in a 300 KHz RX passband (or even with *no* front end filter as Flex
mentions in their brochure). The effect is two or three volts peak!
It's not simply an extra 3 dB for each additional signal.

With *measured* broadcast signals in Europe adjacent to and within
40 meters of 0 to +10 dBm on a simple dipole, that's going to be a
problem even with the (optional) bandpass filters for each amateur
band.

Yes, in reasonably quiet locations - without strong local signals -
the Flex BDR will be fine. However, if one lives close to an AM
"antenna farm" or in a high concentration of active amateurs, the
out of band issue can be severe on 160/80/40. The bandpass filters
will be necessary, out of band receive will be an issue and contests
with their high level of big signals may be a problem for everyone
with a DDC based receiver. due to ADC overload.

> Joe, if you go to the Flex on-line store, you will see the 6500 is
> $3,999, which I reported in an earlier email.

I did not see that ... and I looked for it. I was told $6K and $7K
by a Flex employee (wearing a Flex shirt) at the booth in Dayton.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 5/21/2012 1:30 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Joe, if you go to the Flex on-line store, you will see the 6500 is
> $3,999, which I reported in an earlier email. Yes, that does NOT include
> the computer or the software "fee". Given the amount of processing done
> inside the 6000 series, except for requiring gig-e, I'm not sure that a
> honking computer is required.
>
> BTW, you really need to research DDCs. Previous comments about signals
> combining exponentially seems a little off. I think the military and
> other users (including Quicksilver, HPSDR, HiQSDR, and SDR-IQ users)
> might be slightly surprised by that math.
>
>> From a K3 lover, and not necessarily a Flex lover, but in the interest of
> "balance".
> 73
> Terry, WB4JFI
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Joe Subich, W4TV
> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 1:03 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?
>
>
>> Flex is releasing the new 6500 and 6700 radios. Again, mockups and not
>> operational at Dayton. Price on 6500 is $3900 and 6700 around $7k
>
> Where did you see $3900 for the Flex 6500? I was told $5995 for the
> "single front end" radio and $7999 for the dual front end radio. That
> doesn't include a high end computer with multiple displays and a $200
> per year software license fee.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 5/21/2012 11:37 AM, Dave wrote:
>> They had brochures on the 3000 but no radio on display. Looks like
>> same size
>> and form as the Icom 7600.
>>
>> Kenwood had a mockup of the new TS-990. Back connections were covered and
>> not visible. Front display was showing a photo and was not a working
>> radio.
>> According to Kenwood the hardware design is just about finished but
>> firmware
>> has a long way to go. They are hoping for FCC cert in August and shipping
>> around November. (They didn't say what year!) Price is between $5k and
>> $10k.
>>
>> Flex is releasing the new 6500 and 6700 radios. Again, mockups and not
>> operational at Dayton. Price on 6500 is $3900 and 6700 around $7k
>>
>> Dave
>> wo2x
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mike Rodgers
>> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 11:25 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: [Elecraft] [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?
>>
>> Did anyone see or turn knobs on the proposed FTDX-3000?
>> Did Kenwood have the rumored new
>> Hf rig?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Mike R
>>
>> Play me some fiddle, but no stinkin' violin!
>>
>> Amateur/Ham Radio KE5GBC
>> HF& Echolink mobile
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Bill Clarke

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Software annual fee??? Does this mean the radio will cease to operate
unless you continue to update the software?

Sure hope this idea will not spread!

Bill W2BLC
--
IN GOD I TRUST (but, NOT a single politician)
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Tony Estep

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

In reply to this post by wb4jfi

On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 12:30 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> ... I'm not sure that a honking computer is required...

=======
Naw, the client that displays the pan and controls the radio appears to be
not too different from, say, Ham Radio Deluxe. Of course you can run lots
of pans at once and increase the computing needed, but the radio part is
all on the ARM chip inside.

This is an interesting gambit on Flex's part. They absolutely have to get
out from under PSDR, which has been a huge resource drain with no
offsetting revenues. And they were facing obsolescence problems: a new
version of Firewire, USB 3.0, new Windows OS, etc were making them run hard
to stay in the same place with the old designs. OTOH, leaving the old
designs and their installed user base in the dust kinda makes the claim
that the radio can never go out of style sound a bit hollow -- their old
designs are now orphans and that situation will only get worse. An HQ-110
still performs as it did 50 years ago, but a radio that depended on an
Atari 400 or an Apple 1 would just be junk. That could be the eventual fate
of the existing Flex radios, and this new design makes that point in a
trenchant way. It's a very promising design, a huge upgrade, and a huge
amount of addition by subtraction; but it illustrates the difficulties and
dangers of SDR as a business plan.

Tony KT0NY

--
http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352
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wb4jfi

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

First of all, I do not use every bell and whistle on my K3, and I don't have
every option available on my K3, even though it's nicely loaded to me. For
example, I do not have the second receiver. So, I do not use my existing
rig to it's "maximum use". Therefore, to extrapolate that I would need to
take advantage of every morsel in the 6700 or 6500 is apples to oranges.

Your second assumption brings up a valid point, but not the intended one.
Yes, a Mac Mini probably won't work well. But, not due to a lack of
horsepower. Flex's initial software is for Windows. Yes, I know all about
using Parallels and the other software thing that lets you run Windows
programs on Mac. I have a Macbook here as well as Windows and Linux. Macs
are notoriously expensive for what you get. I bet a $700-$900 (excluding
monitor, since you priced just the Mini) Intel i5 or i7 and Windows box
would work very nice with a Flex 6000 series. Feel free to yell at Flex for
not providing Mac support.

Joe, your math below assumes that every signal is at the same frequency and
the same phase in order to just add the levels, otherwise things don't just
add up like that. For example, even if two signals (both +50dBm) are on the
exact same frequency, but exactly opposite phases, they WILL CANCEL each
other out, you will end up with NO dBm. Nada. Not the addition of both
signals, as you seem to imply. Think vector sums of AC voltages, not DC
summing as a battery. Granted, there may be instantaneous flashes where
signals within the passband combine, but it's not constant like DC voltages,
as your math implies. Than goodness we aren't all on the same frequency and
the same phase.

Back to the main point, the new Flex radios DO come with traditional
filtering, if you need it. In Europe or near an AM broadcast station, it
may be necessary. However, I am sure that the receiver will have
significantly better dynamic range than the 96dB implied by a 16-bit RF A/D
converter. THAT's the point. 16-bits only gets you 96dB minimum to maximum
without "distortion". If there's any more dBs found, even in the harshest
test, there is processing gain. And most of the DSP and SDR world seems to
believe in processing gain due to decimation.

Once again, go do research on Digital DownConversion, decimation, SDR,
processing gain.

And, once again, go to the Flex web site on-line store. Don't believe me.
In black and white (not a tee shirt), it says the 6500 is $3,999 as a
pre-order, with a $1,200 deposit required to pre-order. Click the button
yourself. You might like the rig.

I agree that $200 per year for software support is a bit steep. BTW, I
don't think the rig stops working if you don't pay, you just aren't entitled
to updates. Oh, wait. My Macbook requires me pay for EVERY OS upgrade,
even in-between ones. I had to buy Snow Leopard just to have the right to
upgrade from Leopard to Lion. And that's on a dumb Macbook, which costs a
lot less that a Flex 6500. Maybe I should shut up now.

Reflector, I am done with this. Long live my K3! I have, and will continue
to defend my K3 on the Flex reflector just as vigorously. Sorry for the
off-topic bandwidth.
73,
Terry, WB4JFI

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 1:57 PM
To: [hidden email] ; Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

> Given the amount of processing done inside the 6000 series, except
> for requiring gig-e, I'm not sure that a honking computer is
> required.

For maximum use, one will probably need a multiple display system -
or multiple computers for "radio" plus logger. Not something one
can do with a $699 Mac Mini.

> BTW, you really need to research DDCs. Previous comments about
> signals combining exponentially seems a little off. I think the
> military and other users (including Quicksilver, HPSDR, HiQSDR, and
> SDR-IQ users) might be slightly surprised by that math.

Do the math with multiple S9+20 (-53 dBm) to S9+40 (-33 dBm) signals
in a 300 KHz RX passband (or even with *no* front end filter as Flex
mentions in their brochure). The effect is two or three volts peak!
It's not simply an extra 3 dB for each additional signal.

With *measured* broadcast signals in Europe adjacent to and within
40 meters of 0 to +10 dBm on a simple dipole, that's going to be a
problem even with the (optional) bandpass filters for each amateur
band.

Yes, in reasonably quiet locations - without strong local signals -
the Flex BDR will be fine. However, if one lives close to an AM
"antenna farm" or in a high concentration of active amateurs, the
out of band issue can be severe on 160/80/40. The bandpass filters
will be necessary, out of band receive will be an issue and contests
with their high level of big signals may be a problem for everyone
with a DDC based receiver. due to ADC overload.

> Joe, if you go to the Flex on-line store, you will see the 6500 is
> $3,999, which I reported in an earlier email.

I did not see that ... and I looked for it. I was told $6K and $7K
by a Flex employee (wearing a Flex shirt) at the booth in Dayton.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 5/21/2012 1:30 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Peter Wollan-2

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

The prices I find on the Flex web site are $5999 and $6999.

Peter W0LLN

On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 2:07 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> And, once again, go to the Flex web site on-line store. Don't believe me.
> In black and white (not a tee shirt), it says the 6500 is $3,999 as a
> pre-order, with a $1,200 deposit required to pre-order.
______________________________________________________________
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wb4jfi

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

Copied directly From the Flex web site (using copy/paste not retyped):

FLEX-6500 Limited Edition Pre-Order Deposit Only - Total Introductory Price:
$3999
Your Price: $1,200.00

The 6700 receive-only is the $5,999, and the Flex 6700 Rx/Tx is $6,000. The
6500 (single SCU) is $3,999. Look at the page bottom, last item.

Or, am I looking at a different Flex Radio Systems on-line store "Signature
Series" page than everyone else?
Terry, WB4JFI

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Wollan
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 3:31 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Joe Subich, W4TV ; Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

The prices I find on the Flex web site are $5999 and $6999.

Peter W0LLN

On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 2:07 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> And, once again, go to the Flex web site on-line store. Don't believe me.
> In black and white (not a tee shirt), it says the 6500 is $3,999 as a
> pre-order, with a $1,200 deposit required to pre-order.

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Peter Wollan-2

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

Yup, $6999 and $3999. I hadn't scrolled down far enough. Sorry for
the confusion.

Peter W0LLN

On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 2:41 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Copied directly From the Flex web site (using copy/paste not retyped):
>
> FLEX-6500 Limited Edition Pre-Order Deposit Only - Total Introductory Price:
> $3999
> Your Price: $1,200.00
>
> The 6700 receive-only is the $5,999, and the Flex 6700 Rx/Tx is $6,000. The
> 6500 (single SCU) is $3,999. Look at the page bottom, last item.
>
> Or, am I looking at a different Flex Radio Systems on-line store "Signature
> Series" page than everyone else?
> Terry, WB4JFI
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Peter Wollan
> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 3:31 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: Joe Subich, W4TV ; Elecraft Reflector
>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?
>
> The prices I find on the Flex web site are $5999 and $6999.
>
> Peter W0LLN
>
>
> On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 2:07 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> And, once again, go to the Flex web site on-line store. Don't believe me.
>> In black and white (not a tee shirt), it says the 6500 is $3,999 as a
>> pre-order, with a $1,200 deposit required to pre-order.
>
>

Gary Gregory

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

In reply to this post by Bill Clarke

*Bill,

You think that's a bad idea?

In VK look what happens!

ACMA Amateur ANNUAL licence fee: $65.00
Flex annual lic fee: $200.00

Hmmm...To be a licenced Ham in VK with a Flex radio will cost you $265.00
each and every year.

For everything else there's Mastercard...Chuckle

Regards,
Gary

*
On 22 May 2012 04:21, Bill <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Software annual fee??? Does this mean the radio will cease to operate
> unless you continue to update the software?
>
> Sure hope this idea will not spread!
>
> Bill W2BLC
> --
> IN GOD I TRUST (but, NOT a single politician)
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

In reply to this post by wb4jfi

Terry,

> Your second assumption brings up a valid point, but not the intended
> one. Yes, a Mac Mini probably won't work well.

My point there was the lack of multiple monitor support - Apple is a
closed system and the Mac Mini has only one video output.

> Not the addition of both signals, as you seem to imply. Think vector
> sums of AC voltages, not DC summing as a battery.

That is exactly my point. An ADC must be able to handle the absolute
largest peak voltage for all signals at the same time. If it can not
handle that peak voltage without overflow, the result is IMD that no
amount of decimation will correct.

> Granted, there may be instantaneous flashes where signals within the
> passband combine, but it's not constant like DC voltages, as your
> math implies. Than goodness we aren't all on the same frequency and
> the same phase.

While the chance of every signal adding to the maximum level is small
and the duration of any peak is certainly short, it never the less
represents a finite probability. It is exactly the reason that HDTV
television transmitters and cell phone "base station" transmitters have
power amplifiers that are rated for significant peak to average ratios
and generally need to run much higher standing currents (much closer to
class A than class C) to produce acceptable IMD/distortion/linearity
specifications.

If the receiver designer chooses to use AGC to prevent the ADC from
overflow, the AGC must have a very fast attack and will suffer from
the very issues of "window desensitization" we see with conventional
DSP radios when the DSP bandwidth is less than the roofing filter
bandwidth.

> Once again, go do research on Digital DownConversion, decimation,
> SDR, processing gain.

I have been ... I'm stuck in Charleston, WV due to car trouble on my
way home from Dayton. I've been using the time to reread much of the
information on DDC, Decimation, etc. as well as discuss the issues off-
line with some of the smartest DSP people out there. Decimation can
certainly improve Blocking Dynamic Range beyond that provided by the
"number of bits" ... higher sample rates and increased processing can
add to the effective dynamic range *IF* the ADC is never permitted to
overflow *or* AGC doesn't drop the weakest signals below the composite
noise floor.

I'm not questioning whether the Flex is interesting technology, I am
questioning whether the claimed 150 dB [blocking] dynamic range (no
claims about IMD DR) is sufficient to maintain sensitivity to below
-140 dBm if the ADC can be expected to see peak signal levels
approaching 20 dBm under normal (contest and/or low band) operating
conditions.

> And, once again, go to the Flex web site on-line store. Don't
> believe me. In black and white (not a tee shirt), it says the 6500 is
> $3,999 as a pre-order, with a $1,200 deposit required to pre-order.
> Click the button yourself. You might like the rig.

I'm said I like the concept and $3999 for the 6500 makes it more
interesting - I was not able to find that price when I looked at the
web site (and downloaded the pdf brochure) before leaving Dayton. I
do think there are some significant values in the "dual front end"
(6700) radio - like null steering, true duplex operation for "SO2R
in a box", and diversity. However, I think the Flex products would
make more appropriately priced at $2999/$4999 when compared to other
amateur products than even the current $3999/$6999.

If I could get the 6700 for $4999 with updates when desired for < $150
and I could be sure that the front end would not fall apart or there
wouldn't be a blocking issue with multiple strong signals (or 5V from
the local 50KW AM station) the 6700 would be on my short list of
"future acquisitions".

> Sorry for the off-topic bandwidth.

I don't know that issues of DSP and/or receiver performance are
off-topic but that's up to Eric.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 5/21/2012 3:07 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> First of all, I do not use every bell and whistle on my K3, and I don't
> have every option available on my K3, even though it's nicely loaded to
> me. For example, I do not have the second receiver. So, I do not use my
> existing rig to it's "maximum use". Therefore, to extrapolate that I
> would need to take advantage of every morsel in the 6700 or 6500 is
> apples to oranges.
>
> Your second assumption brings up a valid point, but not the intended
> one. Yes, a Mac Mini probably won't work well. But, not due to a lack of
> horsepower. Flex's initial software is for Windows. Yes, I know all
> about using Parallels and the other software thing that lets you run
> Windows programs on Mac. I have a Macbook here as well as Windows and
> Linux. Macs are notoriously expensive for what you get. I bet a
> $700-$900 (excluding monitor, since you priced just the Mini) Intel i5
> or i7 and Windows box would work very nice with a Flex 6000 series. Feel
> free to yell at Flex for not providing Mac support.
>
> Joe, your math below assumes that every signal is at the same frequency
> and the same phase in order to just add the levels, otherwise things
> don't just add up like that. For example, even if two signals (both
> +50dBm) are on the exact same frequency, but exactly opposite phases,
> they WILL CANCEL each other out, you will end up with NO dBm. Nada. Not
> the addition of both signals, as you seem to imply. Think vector sums of
> AC voltages, not DC summing as a battery. Granted, there may be
> instantaneous flashes where signals within the passband combine, but
> it's not constant like DC voltages, as your math implies. Than goodness
> we aren't all on the same frequency and the same phase.
>
> Back to the main point, the new Flex radios DO come with traditional
> filtering, if you need it. In Europe or near an AM broadcast station, it
> may be necessary. However, I am sure that the receiver will have
> significantly better dynamic range than the 96dB implied by a 16-bit RF
> A/D converter. THAT's the point. 16-bits only gets you 96dB minimum to
> maximum without "distortion". If there's any more dBs found, even in the
> harshest test, there is processing gain. And most of the DSP and SDR
> world seems to believe in processing gain due to decimation.
>
> Once again, go do research on Digital DownConversion, decimation, SDR,
> processing gain.
>
> And, once again, go to the Flex web site on-line store. Don't believe
> me. In black and white (not a tee shirt), it says the 6500 is $3,999 as
> a pre-order, with a $1,200 deposit required to pre-order. Click the
> button yourself. You might like the rig.
>
> I agree that $200 per year for software support is a bit steep. BTW, I
> don't think the rig stops working if you don't pay, you just aren't
> entitled to updates. Oh, wait. My Macbook requires me pay for EVERY OS
> upgrade, even in-between ones. I had to buy Snow Leopard just to have
> the right to upgrade from Leopard to Lion. And that's on a dumb Macbook,
> which costs a lot less that a Flex 6500. Maybe I should shut up now.
>
> Reflector, I am done with this. Long live my K3! I have, and will
> continue to defend my K3 on the Flex reflector just as vigorously. Sorry
> for the off-topic bandwidth.
> 73,
> Terry, WB4JFI
>

Gary Gregory

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

In reply to this post by Peter Wollan-2

*Peter,

Flex 5000 introductory price $3999.00
Flex 6700 introductory price $5999.00

Then there is another 6700 price of $6999.00

Confusing is the best I can say...:-(

Gary
*
On 22 May 2012 05:31, Peter Wollan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The prices I find on the Flex web site are $5999 and $6999.
>
> Peter W0LLN
>
>
> On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 2:07 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > And, once again, go to the Flex web site on-line store. Don't believe
> me.
> > In black and white (not a tee shirt), it says the 6500 is $3,999 as a
> > pre-order, with a $1,200 deposit required to pre-order.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Gary Gregory

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

In reply to this post by wb4jfi

*Terry,

Ah ha!..thanks for the explanation. Hmmmm...still think it is an expensive
way to enjoy the hobby.

Whilst lots of folks are talking about technical specs I will just keep on
working DX!

73's
Gary
*
On 22 May 2012 05:41, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Copied directly From the Flex web site (using copy/paste not retyped):
>
> FLEX-6500 Limited Edition Pre-Order Deposit Only - Total Introductory
> Price:
> $3999
> Your Price: $1,200.00
>
> The 6700 receive-only is the $5,999, and the Flex 6700 Rx/Tx is $6,000.
> The
> 6500 (single SCU) is $3,999. Look at the page bottom, last item.
>
> Or, am I looking at a different Flex Radio Systems on-line store "Signature
> Series" page than everyone else?
> Terry, WB4JFI
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Wollan
> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 3:31 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: Joe Subich, W4TV ; Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?
>
> The prices I find on the Flex web site are $5999 and $6999.
>
> Peter W0LLN
>
>
> On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 2:07 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > And, once again, go to the Flex web site on-line store. Don't believe
> me.
> > In black and white (not a tee shirt), it says the 6500 is $3,999 as a
> > pre-order, with a $1,200 deposit required to pre-order.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Bruce McLaughlin-2

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

In reply to this post by Gary Gregory

I think it is a very bad idea. While it is certainly common practice to
require an additional payment to continue to have access to updated
software, if the radio becomes inoperable because the software is not
updated, I think that would be totally unacceptable. The thought of a $6700
radio becoming a paperweight is not something I would endorse. I think
there needs to be further discussion of exactly what all this means. I also
suspect this entire idea may go over like a lead balloon.

Bruce-W8FU

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gary Gregory
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 5:13 PM
To: Bill
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

*Bill,

You think that's a bad idea?

In VK look what happens!

ACMA Amateur ANNUAL licence fee: $65.00
Flex annual lic fee: $200.00

Hmmm...To be a licenced Ham in VK with a Flex radio will cost you $265.00
each and every year.

For everything else there's Mastercard...Chuckle

Regards,
Gary

*
On 22 May 2012 04:21, Bill <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Software annual fee??? Does this mean the radio will cease to operate
> unless you continue to update the software?
>
> Sure hope this idea will not spread!
>
> Bill W2BLC
> --
> IN GOD I TRUST (but, NOT a single politician)
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

--
Gary
VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile
Elecraft Equipment
K3 #679, KPA-500 #018
Living the dream!!!
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

In reply to this post by wb4jfi

On 5/21/2012 3:41 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Copied directly From the Flex web site (using copy/paste not retyped):

OK, I finally found it ... there are no links to the new radio prices
from the main page. They are not listed under "amateur products". One
must select the "on-line store" and they be savvy enough to understand
that these new boxes are called the "Signature Series" before finally
finding any pricing information on these devices.

Interestingly enough on the same site, the "annual maintenance" package
mentions updates to the SmartSDR (control) software and tech support.
It does not say anything about upgrades to firmware (DSP code).

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 5/21/2012 3:41 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Copied directly From the Flex web site (using copy/paste not retyped):
>
> FLEX-6500 Limited Edition Pre-Order Deposit Only - Total Introductory
> Price: $3999
> Your Price: $1,200.00
>
> The 6700 receive-only is the $5,999, and the Flex 6700 Rx/Tx is $6,000.
> The 6500 (single SCU) is $3,999. Look at the page bottom, last item.
>
> Or, am I looking at a different Flex Radio Systems on-line store
> "Signature Series" page than everyone else?
> Terry, WB4JFI
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Peter Wollan
> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 3:31 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: Joe Subich, W4TV ; Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?
>
> The prices I find on the Flex web site are $5999 and $6999.
>
> Peter W0LLN
>
>
> On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 2:07 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> And, once again, go to the Flex web site on-line store. Don't believe me.
>> In black and white (not a tee shirt), it says the 6500 is $3,999 as a
>> pre-order, with a $1,200 deposit required to pre-order.
>
>

123