[OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

[Rick Prather-2]

Actually you can hook up two monitors to a current mini and in fact if you use the Thunderbolt port you can hook up at least three!

Rick
K6LE

On 5/21/2012, at 2:23 , "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Terry,
>
>> Your second assumption brings up a valid point, but not the intended
>> one. Yes, a Mac Mini probably won't work well.
>
> My point there was the lack of multiple monitor support - Apple is a
> closed system and the Mac Mini has only one video output.

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Back in '98 we hooked a very high end Mac to 9 monitors just to see if
we could do it.  Worked great and the customer was quite pleased.  Those
$10,000 Macs were fine machines.
     Kevin.  KD5ONS



On 5/21/2012 3:07 PM, Rick Prather wrote:

> Actually you can hook up two monitors to a current mini and in fact if you use the Thunderbolt port you can hook up at least three!
>
> Rick
> K6LE
>
> On 5/21/2012, at 2:23 , "Joe Subich, W4TV"<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>> Terry,
>>
>>> Your second assumption brings up a valid point, but not the intended
>>> one. Yes, a Mac Mini probably won't work well.
>> My point there was the lack of multiple monitor support - Apple is a
>> closed system and the Mac Mini has only one video output.
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[Scott Manthe-2]

The $1,000 Macs are fine machines, too.

73,
Scott, N9AA

On 5/21/12 6:10 PM, kevinr wrote:
> Back in '98 we hooked a very high end Mac to 9 monitors just to see if
> we could do it.  Worked great and the customer was quite pleased.  Those
> $10,000 Macs were fine machines.
>       Kevin.  KD5ONS
>
>
>
>

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[Sebastian, W4AS]

So if the new Flex doesn't require a top of the line PC to operate and already has much of the processing power inside, then I would say it's no longer a software defined transceiver in the traditional sense as we've known it (as the 3000/5000), and perhaps should be called a software assisted radio.  Did I just coin a new phrase?

I disagree about SDRs being a danger as a business plan in general.  I hope Elecraft comes out with some sort of an SDR transceiver in the near future, and if they do, it should have an open software architecture that could run on any operating system.  I believe Flex promised that at some time, but never delivered.  This would allow older SDRs to live on, and could entice hardware builders to produce inexpensive transceivers without software or with minimal software.  Software authors could then design a logbook for example that actually controls the radio, not just connects to it.  The hardware should have a built in web server and wifi with at least ad-hoc networking for connection to the outside world.  The smart future Elecraft could design a contraption that would allow plug ins of additional hardware such as transmitters for VHF/UHF, or a big HF contest station could plug in additional transmitters as needed, but with just one main contraption.  The receiver(s) in said
  contraption would receive all bands of course; you just pick where you want to transmit; and where you want to transmit from in the world.

An issue that has already become a problem with older electronic equipment, is when you design hardware to use a certain CPU and/or proprietary chips.  The manufacturers of these components typically 'end of life' them in just a few years, which becomes a problem in near future manufacturing and parts stocking for repairs.

An example is the Kenwood TS-2000 which has been sold for well over a decade.  The finals are no longer available, so Kenwood had to design a new finals board sometime ago with new transistors.  While the board can be used in older TS-2000s, the price is about half (with installation), of what the radio is worth.  

Barring a massive failure of the chips inside, I hope my K3s are still functional in 50 years, and myself as well!

73 de Sebastian, W4AS

> On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 12:30 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Naw, the client that displays the pan and controls the radio appears to be
> not too different from, say, Ham Radio Deluxe. Of course you can run lots
> of pans at once and increase the computing needed, but the radio part is
> all on the ARM chip inside.
>
> This is an interesting gambit on Flex's part. They absolutely have to get
> out from under PSDR, which has been a huge resource drain with no
> offsetting revenues. And they were facing obsolescence problems: a new
> version of Firewire, USB 3.0, new Windows OS, etc were making them run hard
> to stay in the same place with the old designs. OTOH, leaving the old
> designs and their installed user base in the dust kinda makes the claim
> that the radio can never go out of style sound a bit hollow -- their old
> designs are now orphans and that situation will only get worse. An HQ-110
> still performs as it did 50 years ago, but a radio that depended on an
> Atari 400 or an Apple 1 would just be junk. That could be the eventual fate
> of the existing Flex radios, and this new design makes that point in a
> trenchant way. It's a very promising design, a huge upgrade, and a huge
> amount of addition by subtraction; but it illustrates the difficulties and
> dangers of SDR as a business plan.
>
> Tony KT0NY

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[Jim-3]

Gary, the cheaper 6700 is the 6700R = RECEIVER ONLY.  The one for $6999 is
the 6700 transceiver.

KE4WY Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gary Gregory
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 5:24 PM
To: Peter Wollan
Cc: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

*Peter,

Flex 5000 introductory price $3999.00
Flex 6700 introductory price $5999.00

Then there is another 6700 price of $6999.00

Confusing is the best I can say...:-(

Gary
*
On 22 May 2012 05:31, Peter Wollan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The prices I find on the Flex web site are $5999 and $6999.
>
>   Peter W0LLN
>
>
> On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 2:07 PM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > And, once again, go to the Flex web site on-line store.  Don't
> > believe
> me.
> > In black and white (not a tee shirt), it says the 6500 is $3,999 as
> > a pre-order, with a $1,200 deposit required to pre-order.
> ______________________________________________________________
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--
Gary
VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile
Elecraft Equipment
K3 #679, KPA-500 #018
Living the dream!!!
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[Sebastian, W4AS]

Joe, without getting into a 'my OS is better than yours' discussion, you will have to tell my Mac Mini that it only has one video output.  Since last year, the Mac Mini has a standard HDMI port, as well as a ThunderBolt port (developed by Intel) where you can use an inexpensive adaptor to convert it for VGA, DVI or HDMI.  Add 8 gigs of RAM, and this cheap little i5 machine works great!

73 de Sebastian, W4AS



On May 21, 2012, at 5:23 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>
> Terry,
>
>> Your second assumption brings up a valid point, but not the intended
>> one. Yes, a Mac Mini probably won't work well.
>
> My point there was the lack of multiple monitor support - Apple is a
> closed system and the Mac Mini has only one video output.

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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Sebastian,

Your "as we have known it" phrase is telling - I think that attitude is
prevalent among hams, but military and other users of SDR would not agree.

An SDR can be implemented by means of software in a personal computer
*OR* embedded computing device (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software-defined_radio)

Taking the second alternative, Elecraft already has 2 SDRs - the K3 and
the KX3.

I believe other SDRs are moving toward the embedded processor approach
because it does away with obsolescence due to changes in personal
computers - note that the early Flex transceivers used Firewire.  Try to
find a modern laptop that has a firewire interface.  I know there are
Firewire cards available for desktops, but many SDR users insist on
using laptops so things can be "portable".



On 5/21/2012 6:27 PM, Sebastian, W4AS wrote:
> So if the new Flex doesn't require a top of the line PC to operate and already has much of the processing power inside, then I would say it's no longer a software defined transceiver in the traditional sense as we've known it (as the 3000/5000), and perhaps should be called a software assisted radio.  Did I just coin a new phrase?
>
>
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[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

 > Since last year, the Mac Mini has a ...

"Since last year" is the operative phrase ... my Mic Minis (about three
years old) do not have a second video output and no option to add any.
However, this isn't specifically about the Mac Mini.  I could named any
of several netbook and/or small Windows based laptops that have no
external monitor support but I wanted to also highlight that Flex do
not support OS-X or LINUX in any way ... even in the new PowerRX.  Good
Luck controlling the Flex 6500 or 6700 from your iPAD or iPHONE!

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 5/21/2012 6:34 PM, Sebastian, W4AS wrote:

> Joe, without getting into a 'my OS is better than yours' discussion, you will have to tell my Mac Mini that it only has one video output.  Since last year, the Mac Mini has a standard HDMI port, as well as a ThunderBolt port (developed by Intel) where you can use an inexpensive adaptor to convert it for VGA, DVI or HDMI.  Add 8 gigs of RAM, and this cheap little i5 machine works great!
>
> 73 de Sebastian, W4AS
>
>
>
> On May 21, 2012, at 5:23 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
>>
>> Terry,
>>
>>> Your second assumption brings up a valid point, but not the intended
>>> one. Yes, a Mac Mini probably won't work well.
>>
>> My point there was the lack of multiple monitor support - Apple is a
>> closed system and the Mac Mini has only one video output.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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[vk4tux]

Yes the lower price is for the 6500 transceiver (not receiver)
;
FLEX-6500 Limited Edition Pre-Order Deposit Only - Total Introductory Price: $3999 (deposit $1200)

The FLEX-6500™ Signature Series transceiver is based on a new hardware architecture and SmartSDR software platform.  This hardware uses Digital Down Conversion (DDC) to convert from RF to digital and Digital Up Conversion (DUC) to convert from Digital to RF.  The FLEX-6500 uses a single Spectral Capture Unit (SCU) for the RF to digital conversion and an ultra high performance on-board signal processing and control system to perform demodulation and modulation, filtering, and audio stream management.  The result is incredible receiver dynamic range and received signal clarity.


The FLEX-6500 model transceiver utilizes a single SCU for reception from 0.33 to 77 MHz and the ability to create up to 4 full featured independent SLICE RECEIVERS.  Optimized preselector filters can be selected for the ham bands for greater out of band rejection.
 
SmartSDR is the ecosystem of the radio platform.  It organizes all the signal processing power in the radios into an advanced radio fabric.  SmartSDR understands the capabilities of each SCU and how to harness its power.  It also comprises of the presentation layer or GUI client that the user interacts with.  The FLEX-6500 utilizes an Ethernet connection for high-speed driverless access to the graphical user interface (GUI).


The FLEX-6500 provides continuous duty 100W output across the entire 160-6m band. The FLEX-6500 also includes an automatic antenna tuner (ATU) capable of tuning antennas over 10:1 range (3:1 on 160m and 6m).


For more technical information on the FLEX-6000 series of software defined radios, just download the FLEX-6000 Product Brochure.

[Tony Estep]

On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 5:50 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> .....An SDR can be implemented by means of software in a personal computer
> *OR* embedded computing device



> ....other SDRs are moving toward the embedded processor approach
> because it does away with obsolescence due to changes in personal
> computers...

==============
Don is right on. The old notion of what constitutes an SDR is no longer
meaningful, and leads only to confusion.

The embedded processor approach does a lot of good things, but not
everything.

It eliminates the miserable experience of having a piece of SDR software
that gobbles up the resources of the company trying to get it to run
correctly, and then trying to adapt and re-adapt it to ever-changing PC
hosts. However, as long as an outboard PC is required, the SDR business
model is perilous both for manufacturer and customer.

>From the customer's point of view, the danger is obvious. When updates to
the outboard client are needed, they have to come from somewhere. What if
there is nobody to supply them? Your radio made by Collins, Hallicrafters,
Hammarlund, E.F. Johnson, National, etc. etc. will still work. But your
software made by Lotus, or Wordstar, or Zilog, or Spinnaker, will not.

And from the manufacturer's point of view, the tension between trying to
advance your technology and trying to not alienate your installed user base
and damage your credibility creates a narrow path. As the Bhudda said, "To
perceive and to follow the Middle Way is perhaps the most difficult
thing... like walking on the razor's edge....."

Tony KT0NY



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[Lyle Johnson]

"Software defined" does not mean "PC-based".  The K3 and KX3 are
absolutely software defined radios.

73,

Lyle KK7P
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[Don Wilhelm-4]

If you want an extended example of the PC implementation of SDR, take a
look at LP-PAN.  That is an "SDR converter" (for receive only) to take
the IF of a receiver and convert it to I/Q signals which can be further
processed in a panadapter display on a personal computer.

One of the things Larry Phipps emphasizes is that once you get
everything working, do NOT allow Windows to update.  While supposedly,
Windows updates are good for security  situations, it is known that such
updates will "upset the applecart" with the SDR handling software.

I bring this example in to point out the dependency that SDR systems
that use a personal computer have on the operating system which can
change from day to day.  The embedded processor does not have that
exposure, and IMHO is much better because it is more stable.

The downloadable firmware for the K3 and KX3 definitely put those radios
into the SDR arena.  I certainly hope Elecraft does not begin to charge
$200 a year for firmware (and technical) support.
Yes, charging for upgrades within the software community is not unknown,
and I do not begrudge Carl N4PY for doing that - he has an excellent
product, but $200 a year seem a bit "steep" - Carl charges $35 per year
- a big difference.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 5/21/2012 7:37 PM, Tony Estep wrote:

> On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 5:50 PM, Don Wilhelm<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>> .....An SDR can be implemented by means of software in a personal computer
>> *OR* embedded computing device
>
>
>> ....other SDRs are moving toward the embedded processor approach
>> because it does away with obsolescence due to changes in personal
>> computers...
> ==============
> Don is right on. The old notion of what constitutes an SDR is no longer
> meaningful, and leads only to confusion.
>
> The embedded processor approach does a lot of good things, but not
> everything.
>
>

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[wayne burdick]

And in case anyone was wondering, there will never, ever, be an annual  
Elecraft tech-support charge.

Wayne


Lyle Johnson wrote:

> "Software defined" does not mean "PC-based".  The K3 and KX3 are
> absolutely software defined radios.



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[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

On 5/21/2012 8:12 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
 > And in case anyone was wondering, there will never, ever, be an annual
 > Elecraft tech-support charge.

That is good news ... and an outstanding reason to eschew the new Flex
offerings.  However, I am looking forward to the next "high performance"
offering from Elecraft.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


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[Bruce Beford-2]

Difficult to see... Always in motion, is the future.
-Yoda


> That is good news ... and an outstanding reason to eschew the new Flex
> offerings.  However, I am looking forward to the next "high performance"
> offering from Elecraft.




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[Tony Estep]

On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 7:12 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> And in case anyone was wondering, there will never, ever, be an annual
> Elecraft tech-support charge.
>
========
...just one of many favorable outgrowths of having thought through very
carefully the right combination of business model + technology model. SDR
via an outboard PC is a beguiling idea, but maybe impossible to
commercialize. The KX3 so far appears (at least IMHO) to be the perfect
blend of what works electronically and what works in the market.

Tony KT0NY



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[wayne burdick]

Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

> ....looking forward to the next "high performance" offering from  
> Elecraft.

You can take your K3 to the next level just by putting rev 4.51  
firmware on it.

No charge.

Wayne


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[John KLim]

Hi all,

Suggestion for the K4 double the number of filters on the radio.

 All flames to me.

73 ES CUL  DE  N3KHK
=======================================
John R. Klim II
ARRL LM, AMSAT LM
10-10:  68135
30MDG:  1820
QSL:  LoTW, Bureau, Direct, eQSL as a courtesy

 


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 10:49 PM
To: Joe Subich, W4TV
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

> ....looking forward to the next "high performance" offering from  
> Elecraft.

You can take your K3 to the next level just by putting rev 4.51  
firmware on it.

No charge.

Wayne


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[k6dgw]

On 5/21/2012 7:48 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
> Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
>> ....looking forward to the next "high performance" offering from
>> Elecraft.
>
> You can take your K3 to the next level just by putting rev 4.51
> firmware on it.
>
> No charge.

I usually hold off on the beta's, I'm really not that technically
inclined any more, I try to let others vet things for me, but I have now
heard from 4 of my good friends whose technical skills I trust that this
is a good rev.  I think I'll do it tomorrow when I have the time.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
- www.cqp.org

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[KC6CNN]

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