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[OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

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Simon Lewis-6

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

Wayne,

with the K3 firmware updated and the KX3 out will you now have some time for someone to look at the frequency jumping in the ref locked internal 144 transverter ?

this is still the most annoying bug for a weak signal operator - to the extent it makes me not use the int trv at all for JT65

I know some of the other weak sig ops have asked for this to be looked at as well

Thanks
Simon ZL4PLM

Check out more information on the world 50 MHz and Up : www.zl4plm.com

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 19:48:44 -0700
> CC: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?
>
> Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
> > ....looking forward to the next "high performance" offering from
> > Elecraft.
>
> You can take your K3 to the next level just by putting rev 4.51
> firmware on it.
>
> No charge.
>
> Wayne
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Simon Lewis-6

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

Thats good

let me know if you need a test bed to try it :)

Happy to be a beta tester!

Cheers

Simon

Check out more information on the world 50 MHz and Up : www.zl4plm.com

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?
> Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 20:30:10 -0700
>
> Definitely. It's at the top of our K3 list now that we've gotten over
> that pesky AGC problem.
>
> Wayne
>
> On May 21, 2012, at 8:23 PM, Simon Lewis wrote:
>
> > Wayne,
> >
> > with the K3 firmware updated and the KX3 out will you now have some
> > time for someone to look at the frequency jumping in the ref locked
> > internal 144 transverter ?
> >
> > this is still the most annoying bug for a weak signal operator - to
> > the extent it makes me not use the int trv at all for JT65
> >
> > I know some of the other weak sig ops have asked for this to be
> > looked at as well
> >
> > Thanks
> > Simon ZL4PLM
> >
> >
> >
> > Check out more information on the world 50 MHz and Up : www.zl4plm.com
> >
> >
> > > From: [hidden email]
> > > To: [hidden email]
> > > Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 19:48:44 -0700
> > > CC: [hidden email]
> > > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?
> > >
> > > Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> > >
> > > > ....looking forward to the next "high performance" offering from
> > > > Elecraft.
> > >
> > > You can take your K3 to the next level just by putting rev 4.51
> > > firmware on it.
> > >
> > > No charge.
> > >
> > > Wayne
> > >
> > >
> > > ______________________________________________________________
> > > Elecraft mailing list
> > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> > >
> > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Rick WA6NHC

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

In reply to this post by John KLim

With an ability to plug directly (wirelessly?) into the Internet (some
security required) for control, audio and IF/P3 output.

Others attempt it, only Elecraft can do it right.

Then add smartphone/pad apps, for digital modes as well as voice, a complete
remote station in one box, just add antenna(s) and power; and/or use it as
your home station.

Add a built in audio streamer so others can hear; alert you to rare DX...

Best of everything, that's what we want/need! :-D

That's Wayne/Eric's problem, how do they top what they've already
accomplished so well? (Kudos)

Geesh, it WAS a long day today; back into my hole.

Rick wa6nhc

-----Original Message-----
From: John KLim

Hi all,

Suggestion for the K4 double the number of filters on the radio.

All flames to me.

73 ES CUL DE N3KHK

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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs? end of thread

Administrator

Guys, we are -way- exceeding the posting volume limit for a single topic - which is certainly overloading many readers. Let's wind this topic down at this time.

73,
Eric
Elecraft List Modulator
www.elecraft.com
_..._

On May 21, 2012, at 8:47 PM, Rick Bates <[hidden email]> wrote:

> With an ability to plug directly (wirelessly?) into the Internet (some
> security required) for control, audio and IF/P3 output.
>
> Others attempt it, only Elecraft can do it right.
>
> Then add smartphone/pad apps, for digital modes as well as voice, a complete
> remote station in one box, just add antenna(s) and power; and/or use it as
> your home station.
>
> Add a built in audio streamer so others can hear; alert you to rare DX...
>
> Best of everything, that's what we want/need! :-D
>
> That's Wayne/Eric's problem, how do they top what they've already
> accomplished so well? (Kudos)
>
> Geesh, it WAS a long day today; back into my hole.
>
> Rick wa6nhc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John KLim
>
> Hi all,
>
> Suggestion for the K4 double the number of filters on the radio.
>
> All flames to me.
>
> 73 ES CUL DE N3KHK
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Don Wilhelm-4

Loading beta software

In reply to this post by KC6CNN

Gerald,

You do not point the K3 Utility to the beta site.
Point your browser at the beta site and download it. It is typically a
zip file.
Unzip it to a folder of your choice.
Point K3 Utility to the folder where you placed the unzipped files.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 5/21/2012 11:05 PM, Gerald Manthey wrote:
> OK, talked me into it also. How do you point the software to the beta
> sight?
>
>
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Lu Romero - W4LT

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

In reply to this post by mikerodgerske5gbc

Some "final" comments while watching this thread progress:

I agree with Lyle... SDR does not mean "processing by PC".
Our K3's and KX3's are fully qualified Software Defined
Radios with processing on embedded processors. Sort of like
what Flex is looking to build now. It doesnt matter where
the code runs, folks, just because it doesnt run on external
Intel silicon does not mean it aint an SDR!

The Embedded Systems approach is a safer path than trusting
your device (perhipheral?) to the vagarities of personal
computer OS and hardware "progress". At least you have SOME
control of the environment! Professional applications have
to be more resilient to the whims of software and hardware
changes that will rear their ugly heads at the worst
possible times. The big push for Elecraft to embrace USB
instead of serial comms comes directly to mind... RS232 is
well defined and robust. I certainly do not want to be left
to the whims of USB driver code with my computer to radio
comms. I get enough of this stuff at work to have to deal
with it when Im trying to relax on the radio.

$200 a year for a $8k software based product is a bit steep
for a "hobby" product. Frankly, this fee is very much a
high profit margin fee. An ex employer of mine used to
charge 20% of the undiscounted price of an entire system on
a yearly basis, and this fee was around 30% of the profit
for the entire division. They demanded this early on in the
product cycle because the product was the only one of the
many in the industry that actually worked right. Sadly for
them, the competition got better and in about 5 years, that
profit completely vaporized.

All support costs money; but you have to be reasonable about
it. Being in that business myself, reliability is key, not
the latest fun thing from some software developer. My new
employer (I will join them in July) still runs their
broadcast transcode processes using MS Server 2003. Why?
Because they know all the bugs in it, and they dont know the
bugs in Server 2010 yet. When it has to run 24x7x365, the
devil you know is better than the devil you dont know.

Windows updates! Larry Phipps, being a broadcast engineer,
understands this scary thing. Tell you a quick horror story
about Windows Update. A local station in Pittsburgh
installed a new whiz-bang automated news production system
to automate their newscast production a few years ago.
Where they would employ 15 people in the making of this
program, now with the "automation", they only needed 5 to do
an even fancier show! The system ran on Windows machines. It
was installed and worked wonderfully; the customer was very
happy. The factory installation engineer (a personal friend
of mine) personally turned off all the Windows Update
settings on the many machines that comprised this system,
and admonished the station engineering folks to leave this
feature turned off, which they did. The system ran
perfectly for several months until one day, the entire
system collapsed, relegating the noon and 5pm newscasts to
being performed with news cameras hastily set up in the
station parking lot. Upon investigation of the problem by
my friend after a hurried trip to the station, it was found
that a station IT guy had turned on Windows Update on one of
the newsroom computer interface machines. When this machine
decided to update itself right before the noon news, it
brought the ENTIRE automation system down with it.

Moral of the story: Windows Updates can kill you.

Lu - w4lt-
K3 #3192

-------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 19:56:20 -0400
From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?
To: [hidden email]
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

If you want an extended example of the PC implementation of
SDR, take a
look at LP-PAN. That is an "SDR converter" (for receive
only) to take
the IF of a receiver and convert it to I/Q signals which can
be further
processed in a panadapter display on a personal computer.

One of the things Larry Phipps emphasizes is that once you
get
everything working, do NOT allow Windows to update. While
supposedly,
Windows updates are good for security situations, it is
known that such
updates will "upset the applecart" with the SDR handling
software.

I bring this example in to point out the dependency that SDR
systems
that use a personal computer have on the operating system
which can
change from day to day. The embedded processor does not
have that
exposure, and IMHO is much better because it is more stable.

The downloadable firmware for the K3 and KX3 definitely put
those radios
into the SDR arena. I certainly hope Elecraft does not
begin to charge
$200 a year for firmware (and technical) support.
Yes, charging for upgrades within the software community is
not unknown,
and I do not begrudge Carl N4PY for doing that - he has an
excellent
product, but $200 a year seem a bit "steep" - Carl charges
$35 per year
- a big difference.

73,
Don W3FPR

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John Ragle

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

While I agree with almost all of this polemic, I disagree totally with
the "Moral of the story" videre licet if one is foolish enough to let a
functional (and therefore invaluable) collection of software be at the
mercy of the cloud (any cloud!) by not having a local bit image backup
at hand, then one gets what one deserves, e.g. Swiss cheese for
feet.Even in as narrow a domain as the software for Elecraft boxes, the
designers have made careful provision for users to have backups on hand
(LOCAL files of operational software).

It is vitally important to practice "safe sectors." A bit image backup
takes only a few minutes, and can be made on an auxiliary hard drive or
a jump drive. This operating philosophy has been known since dust was
invented, and is not the last refuge of a paranoid person, only a means
to protect oneself.

John Ragle -- W1ZI

=====

On 5/22/2012 10:53 AM, Lu Romero wrote:
> <Snip>Moral of the story: Windows Updates can kill you.</Snip>

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Lu Romero - W4LT

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

In reply to this post by mikerodgerske5gbc

My apologies, I read the digest and was not aware that the
discussion subject was closed. Sorry for the bandwidth.

-lu-w4lt-
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David Gilbert

Re: [OT] Dayton- new hf rigs?

In reply to this post by Lu Romero - W4LT

That's rather a stretch. It's the equivalent of saying that updating
your K3 firmware to the latest approved release in the middle of a
contest will hurt your score. It's the timing of the action that
kills, not the action itself.

The moral to that anecdote isn't the one you think it is.

Dave AB7E

On 5/22/2012 7:53 AM, Lu Romero wrote:
> When this machine
> decided to update itself right before the noon news, it
> brought the ENTIRE automation system down with it.
>
> Moral of the story: Windows Updates can kill you.
>
> Lu - w4lt-
> K3 #3192
>
______________________________________________________________
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Jim Low man

SDRs and embedded processors

In reply to this post by Lu Romero - W4LT

Just a thought - I agree completely about the harm that software
updates can do.

But isn't there another problem lurking with passing time?
I refer to the obsolescence of some dedicated processors that
are no longer available from their source.

Will Elecraft be able to support these embedded processors
well into the future? It's been mentioned that the older, tube-based
radios of 50 years ago work just fine today (as long as one can
still obtain the required tubes). I don't expect to be around when
any of my Elecraft transceivers hit the 50-year mark, but I'd like
to think that they'll be good to go 20-30 years from now.

One other note on software: I have some software for receivers
and transceivers that are currently on the shelf (example: a Ten-Tec
Pegasus) that were designed back in the days of DOS or Windows 95.
It will be interesting to see if they will still work with Windows 7.

72/73 de Jim - AD6CW

On 5/22/2012 7:53 AM, Lu Romero wrote:

> Some "final" comments while watching this thread progress:
>
> I agree with Lyle... SDR does not mean "processing by PC".
> Our K3's and KX3's are fully qualified Software Defined
> Radios with processing on embedded processors. Sort of like
> what Flex is looking to build now. It doesnt matter where
> the code runs, folks, just because it doesnt run on external
> Intel silicon does not mean it aint an SDR!
>
> The Embedded Systems approach is a safer path than trusting
> your device (perhipheral?) to the vagarities of personal
> computer OS and hardware "progress". At least you have SOME
> control of the environment! Professional applications have
> to be more resilient to the whims of software and hardware
> changes that will rear their ugly heads at the worst
> possible times. The big push for Elecraft to embrace USB
> instead of serial comms comes directly to mind... RS232 is
> well defined and robust. I certainly do not want to be left
> to the whims of USB driver code with my computer to radio
> comms. I get enough of this stuff at work to have to deal
> with it when Im trying to relax on the radio.
>
>
> Lu - w4lt-
> K3 #3192
>
>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: SDRs and embedded processors

Jim,

I don't think software updates are a problem, but Windows Automatic
Updates can (and do) happen at the most inconvenient times.

I do not believe concern about obsolescence of dedicated processors is
any great problem. The K3 could be re-designed with a different
processor to take care of repairs.
Loading of updated firmware into a dedicated processor is a concern
because transmission methods tend to change from time to time - consider
the problem the older Flex owners have bedause Flex choose to use
Firewire - and I foresee USB going the same way. I am very glad to see
that the K3 and KX3 have serial interfaces. Serial ports may be
disappearing from consumer computers, but there are readily available
adapters.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 5/22/2012 1:54 PM, Jim Lowman wrote:

David Gilbert

Re: SDRs and embedded processors

In reply to this post by Jim Low man

That's an interesting question, but I don't see how it is any different
than for any other rig that has been introduced in the last 20 years.
Microprocessors have been in use for ages to handle all sorts of tasks
from menu functions to display. It doesn't matter whether those
processors are controlled from ROM or flash RAM, or whether the software
processes signals or human interface ... when the processor quits so
does the rig.

I suppose one way to mitigate the chance for obsolescence is to make as
much of the rig modular as possible ... i.e., put the critical
semiconductors (processors, flash ram, etc) on daughterboards that could
be functionally replaced with more modern devices. I think to a great
extent Elecraft has done that in the K3, but let's be honest ... how
many people would actually buy a 50 year old tube rig with the intent of
making it their primary rig anyway? The only reason anybody cares about
such an old rig is nostalgia since the overall performance of a modern
rig is much more compelling. 50 years from now that will probably be
the case for the K3 as well, and I'm not even certain that ham radio
will still be relevant enough then for anyone to care.

73,
Dave AB7E

On 5/22/2012 10:54 AM, Jim Lowman wrote:

> Just a thought - I agree completely about the harm that software
> updates can do.
>
> But isn't there another problem lurking with passing time?
> I refer to the obsolescence of some dedicated processors that
> are no longer available from their source.
>
> Will Elecraft be able to support these embedded processors
> well into the future? It's been mentioned that the older, tube-based
> radios of 50 years ago work just fine today (as long as one can
> still obtain the required tubes). I don't expect to be around when
> any of my Elecraft transceivers hit the 50-year mark, but I'd like
> to think that they'll be good to go 20-30 years from now.
>
> One other note on software: I have some software for receivers
> and transceivers that are currently on the shelf (example: a Ten-Tec
> Pegasus) that were designed back in the days of DOS or Windows 95.
> It will be interesting to see if they will still work with Windows 7.
>
> 72/73 de Jim - AD6CW

N8MSA

Re: SDRs and embedded processors

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

"Redesigning" an existing device to use a new microcontroller (not a PC microprocessor) is non-trivial; even pin-compatible parts often have changes in memory layout and peripheral addressing that drive software updates, compiler updates, etc. And if a pin-compatible part isn't available, then...it's a huge effort. I lived through this when last year's Tohoku (Japan) earthquake and tsunami caused a key Renesas plant to close, causing a huge scramble by automotive OEMs to change microcontrollers. There was a lot of pain and expense involved...

And I strenuously disagree with the assertion that USB 2.0 will "go the same way as FireWire". With an installed base estimated to be 15 billion devices, and full backwards compatibility from the successor to USB 2.0 (USB 3.0), I see a very long life for USB 2.0. More microprocessor and microcontroller architectures are including embedded USB 2.0 peripherals every day, and the roadmaps that I have seen show this trend continuing for the foreseeable future. RS-232-style ports are, on the other hand, not included in many new micros and are rapidly disappearing from silicon vendor roadmaps.

Mike Alexander - N8MSA

[hidden email]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Wilhelm" <[hidden email]>
To: "Jim Lowman" <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 2:15:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] SDRs and embedded processors

Jim,

I don't think software updates are a problem, but Windows Automatic
Updates can (and do) happen at the most inconvenient times.

I do not believe concern about obsolescence of dedicated processors is
any great problem. The K3 could be re-designed with a different
processor to take care of repairs.
Loading of updated firmware into a dedicated processor is a concern
because transmission methods tend to change from time to time - consider
the problem the older Flex owners have bedause Flex choose to use
Firewire - and I foresee USB going the same way. I am very glad to see
that the K3 and KX3 have serial interfaces. Serial ports may be
disappearing from consumer computers, but there are readily available
adapters.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 5/22/2012 1:54 PM, Jim Lowman wrote:

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Alan Bloom

Re: SDRs and embedded processors

In reply to this post by Jim Low man

On Tue, 2012-05-22 at 10:54 -0700, Jim Lowman wrote:
...
> But isn't there another problem lurking with passing time?
> I refer to the obsolescence of some dedicated processors that
> are no longer available from their source.
>
> Will Elecraft be able to support these embedded processors
> well into the future?

That may be one reason why Elecraft has chosen to go with mostly PIC
processors. Microchip has been very good about continuing to make and
support their older designs. (Have they ever obsoleted a PIC
processor?)

Alan N1AL

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wayne burdick

Re: SDRs and embedded processors

Administrator

Alan Bloom wrote:

> Microchip has been very good about continuing to make and
> support their older designs. (Have they ever obsoleted a PIC
> processor?)

Not that I know of.

I first used a PIC MCU around 1995, in a NorCal 40A add-on (KC1 keyer/
counter). It was a PIC16F84, which is still stocked in several package
styles, in the thousands each, by Digikey.

If I'm not mistaken you can still get the KC1, too--from Wilderness
Radio.

Wayne
N6KR

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Jim Low man

Re: SDRs and embedded processors

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Yes, Don, Windows automatic updates can be a problem, but I have all of
the computers at home set to check for updates at 3 AM daily.
That way they won't interrupt anything that we may be doing.

I've learned quite a bit about the PIC processors from Wayne and others,
and I thank everyone for the information.
Makes it easier to sleep at night! :-)

73 de Jim

On 5/22/2012 11:15 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Jim,
>
> I don't think software updates are a problem, but Windows Automatic
> Updates can (and do) happen at the most inconvenient times.
>
> I do not believe concern about obsolescence of dedicated processors is
> any great problem. The K3 could be re-designed with a different
> processor to take care of repairs.
> Loading of updated firmware into a dedicated processor is a concern
> because transmission methods tend to change from time to time -
> consider the problem the older Flex owners have bedause Flex choose to
> use Firewire - and I foresee USB going the same way. I am very glad
> to see that the K3 and KX3 have serial interfaces. Serial ports may
> be disappearing from consumer computers, but there are readily
> available adapters.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>

Bill K9YEQ

Re: SDRs and embedded processors

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

It is still for sale!

73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-----Original Message-----

Alan Bloom wrote:

> Microchip has been very good about continuing to make and support
> their Not that I know of.

I first used a PIC MCU around 1995, in a NorCal 40A add-on (KC1 keyer/
counter). It was a PIC16F84, which is still stocked in several package
styles, in the thousands each, by Digikey.older designs. (Have they ever
obsoleted a PIC
> processor?)

If I'm not mistaken you can still get the KC1, too--from Wilderness Radio.

Wayne
N6KR

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123