Plasma TV Noise any ideas on how to filter it out.

[Ron Gould]

I had a Panasonic Plasma TV that not only caused radio interference but also heated up my
bedroom in a central air conditioned house so much that I could not be comfortable especially
in the summer.  I first contacted Panasonic about these problems and they were of NO HELP.

The representative told me on the phone "I should have researched on the Internet that
all Plasma TV's cause radio interference and that nothing could be done."  I really could
not believe their position. I asked to speak to a supervisor who told me the same thing.
Thats when I made a great decision.  I decided right there on the spot, I would never
own another Panasonic product for the rest of my life.

I contacted Costco where I had purchased the TV eight months prior and spoke to
the the manager explaining the situation and told him I was very unhappy with the
Plasma TV.  Even though I had purchased the TV beyond their return date policy and
had none of the original packaging, they took it back and issued me a full 100% refund.
This is how I filtered the noise out and will continue to filter out Panasonic products forever.
I replaced all TV's since with LCD/LED TV's that seem to have better picture quality and
have noted reduced electric bills.

I also decided to sell all Panasonic products I had. Panasonic will remain on my personal blacklist
as a result of their stellar customer service not to mention IMHO  bad products.  I also have eliminated
all Japanese HF radios and support equipment because YaKenCom have not been much better
with their support strategies and obsolescence policies.  I have had many and I do not think
they hold up over time.  They are throw away electronic junk once they break and will.

Years ago when the American Amateur Radio market was taken over by the Japanese because
the companies were closing down here, the Japanese companies had the only game in town.
That has changed and Elecraft, Ten Tec, Alpha and others are building better products in my
opinion than the foreign competition and providing after market support the Japanese simply
do not match or even come close too.  If you even think the Japanese were the worst, wait till
you try for support on your Chinese products when they fall apart. Amen!

73's  Ron
[hidden email]


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[Stewart Baker]

In the UK there have been many complaints about RFI from Panasonic Plasma TV's.
Some people have had success in getting the problem resolved, generally by the entire
screen assembly being changed out. Others have received the same sort of response as you.
Luckily my neighbour who had a very noisy one recently moved away.

As I write this mail I am looking at the last Panasonic product in this house, a cordless phone.
When that has gone Kaput, that's it...No more Panasonic.

I operate a strict "Goods in" inspection of all electrical products. Using a Spectrum Analyser and
a general coverage SONY receiver I check it for RFI . If bad, the item is returned for a refund.
If very bad I get in touch with my local Trading Standards Office who are meant to police what is sold in the UK.

73
Stewart G3RXQ
On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 11:41:59 -0800, Ron Gould wrote:

> I had a Panasonic Plasma TV that not only caused radio interference but also heated up my
> bedroom in a central air conditioned house so much that I could not be comfortable especially
> in the summer.  I first contacted Panasonic about these problems and they were of NO HELP.
>
> The representative told me on the phone "I should have researched on the Internet that
> all Plasma TV's cause radio interference and that nothing could be done."  I really could
> not believe their position. I asked to speak to a supervisor who told me the same thing.
> Thats when I made a great decision.  I decided right there on the spot, I would never
> own another Panasonic product for the rest of my life.
>
> I contacted Costco where I had purchased the TV eight months prior and spoke to
> the the manager explaining the situation and told him I was very unhappy with the
> Plasma TV.  Even though I had purchased the TV beyond their return date policy and
> had none of the original packaging, they took it back and issued me a full 100% refund.
> This is how I filtered the noise out and will continue to filter out Panasonic products forever.
> I replaced all TV's since with LCD/LED TV's that seem to have better picture quality and
> have noted reduced electric bills.
>
> I also decided to sell all Panasonic products I had. Panasonic will remain on my personal blacklist
> as a result of their stellar customer service not to mention IMHO  bad products.  I also have eliminated
> all Japanese HF radios and support equipment because YaKenCom have not been much better
> with their support strategies and obsolescence policies.  I have had many and I do not think
> they hold up over time.  They are throw away electronic junk once they break and will.
>
> Years ago when the American Amateur Radio market was taken over by the Japanese because
> the companies were closing down here, the Japanese companies had the only game in town.
> That has changed and Elecraft, Ten Tec, Alpha and others are building better products in my
> opinion than the foreign competition and providing after market support the Japanese simply
> do not match or even come close too.  If you even think the Japanese were the worst, wait till
> you try for support on your Chinese products when they fall apart. Amen!
>
> 73's  Ron
> [hidden email]
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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[ab2tc]

Hi all,

I am curious as to what this noise sounds like. I don't think I have any of it but it would be nice to be able to recognize it if someone in the neighborhood should get one. Could someone with the noise provide an audio clip? I can host the clip for anyone with limited options, although I think there is space in the "files" section.

AB2TC - Knut

Stewart Baker wrote

In the UK there have been many complaints about RFI from Panasonic Plasma TV's.
Some people have had success in getting the problem resolved, generally by the entire
screen assembly being changed out. Others have received the same sort of response as you.
Luckily my neighbour who had a very noisy one recently moved away.
<snip>

[alsopb]

Maybe this older article will help.

http://www.eham.net/articles/4285

73 de Brian/K3KO

On 11/26/2010 17:02, ab2tc wrote:

>
> Hi all,
>
> I am curious as to what this noise sounds like. I don't think I have any of
> it but it would be nice to be able to recognize it if someone in the
> neighborhood should get one. Could someone with the noise provide an audio
> clip? I can host the clip for anyone with limited options, although I think
> there is space in the "files" section.
>
> AB2TC - Knut
>
>
> Stewart Baker wrote:
>>
>> In the UK there have been many complaints about RFI from Panasonic Plasma
>> TV's.
>> Some people have had success in getting the problem resolved, generally by
>> the entire
>> screen assembly being changed out. Others have received the same sort of
>> response as you.
>> Luckily my neighbour who had a very noisy one recently moved away.
>> <snip>
>>
>

-----
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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[ab2tc]

Hi,

Interesting article. I take some consolation in the fact that the article goes all the way back to 2002. Maybe the predicted onslaught of these TV hasn't happened. I have two LCD TVs and have never considered going to a plasma device. The LCD TVs are relatively benign, although I can hear the 3rd harmonic of the color burst crystal around the clock. In general I am very happy to be rid of the last CRT in all TVs and computer monitors as of last year. LCDs are much quieter than CRTs.

AB2TC - Knut

alsopb wrote

Maybe this older article will help.

http://www.eham.net/articles/4285

73 de Brian/K3KO

<snip>

[KD8NNU]

So based on all the information the best bet is a MFJ 1026 sound
cancelling system and that is a hit our miss solution.

The next question that I have is there any similar devices made by
different companies so one can compare options.

I am willing to try a solution like this as its much cheaper than
replacing the TV, also it might work on other noise that is outside of
my house.

Thx
Don
KD8NNU

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[Eugene Balinski]

The ANC-4 is the original design for active cancelling
systems.  It can be VERY effective.  Try mounting the
"sense" antenna as close to the offending TV as possible.

http://www.timewave.com/support/ANC-4/anc4.html

73

Gene K1NR

K2 6Kxx


On Fri, 26 Nov 2010 13:35:26 -0500 (EST)
 [hidden email] wrote:

> So based on all the information the best bet is a MFJ
> 1026 sound
> cancelling system and that is a hit our miss solution.
>
> The next question that I have is there any similar
> devices made by
> different companies so one can compare options.
>
> I am willing to try a solution like this as its much
> cheaper than
> replacing the TV, also it might work on other noise that
> is outside of
> my house.
>
> Thx
> Don
> KD8NNU
>
>

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[roncasa]

On Fri, 2010-11-26 at 09:02 -0800, ab2tc wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I am curious as to what this noise sounds like. I don't think I have any of
> it but it would be nice to be able to recognize it if someone in the
> neighborhood should get one. Could someone with the noise provide an audio
> clip? I can host the clip for anyone with limited options, although I think
> there is space in the "files" section.
 

If you have an older set of wireless headphones (infrared),  place the
wireless  transmitter in front of the tellie then turn the remote on,
you will get an earful of continuos "hash" in your ears.

That should give you an idea.

When you turn your head away from the screen, the noise is reduced,
(but the audio drops out because of line-of-site limitation of
infrared).

BTW:
My Sony (not a plasma) generates "hash" with my old headset but does not
cause interference to ham radio.
Because of the above, I bought a more recent headset that is not
affected with these problems.

I am almost deaf and need the headphones when CC is not on, to "hear"
the tellie.

72,
Ron, wb1hga
"we all get heavier as we age. That's because there's more information
in our heads"

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[Phil Daniells, GJ4CBQ]

Panasonic stuff isn't all bad!

We have two Panasonic LCD TV's here.  Both have very good pictures and
neither is a QRM generator.

Whilst I understand the motivation to boycott their products, I feel
that giving the vote of confidence to their RF quiet products in
preference to their heavily promoted, noisy, devices still sends an
appropriate message to Panasonic.

A few months back their website was running an article that actively
encouraged consumers to purchase Plasma instead of LCD TV's by massively
downplaying the drawbacks of Plasma.  Strangely there was no mention of QRM!

I guess you might know this, Stewart.  Are there ANY quiet Plasma TV's
out there?

To get back vaguely on topic, the combination of K3 and LP-Pan displays
a very distinctive signature for Plasma TV's.  Fortunately there aren't
too many of them round here, they're not too loud and they're rarely all
on at the same time.  Rather than filtering, I find the best defence is
the MFJ-1025.  It cancels the Plasma QRM every time.

73,

Phil, GJ4CBQ.



On 26/11/2010 09:37, Stewart wrote:
>
> As I write this mail I am looking at the last Panasonic product in this house, a cordless phone.
> When that has gone Kaput, that's it...No more Panasonic.
>

> 73
> Stewart G3RXQ
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[Dick Dickinson]

Hi Don,

The JPS ANC-4 is similar to and preceded the MFJ unit.  It lacks the 'Peak
and Invert' feature of the MFJ.  I suspect it is sometimes easier to find a
peak and invert than finding a null.  I recall on the ANC-4 finding a good
null was sometimes difficult.


73,
Dick - KA5KKT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------


The next question that I have is there any similar devices made by
different companies so one can compare options.

Thx
Don
KD8NNU


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[Phil Salas]

I guess I picked the right brand.  I've had a Pioneer 50" plasma since 2004
and it doesn't generate any RF noise.
Phil - AD5X

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[ab2tc]

Hi,

One thing is for sure: Once you have either one of these devices in front of your K3 receiver, you can wave good-bye to the world class blocking and IMD dynamic range of your receiver. I would consider this an absolute last resort. I don't think I could put up with the necessary knob twiddling required to locate the null, which will change each time you change frequency. So far as I cane tell no noisy plasma TVs in my neighborhood - knock on wood. Everyone in my family is happy with our 40" Sony LCD TV (which is quiet) so no pressure there.

AB2TC - Knut

Edward Dickinson, III-2 wrote

Hi Don,

The JPS ANC-4 is similar to and preceded the MFJ unit.  It lacks the 'Peak
and Invert' feature of the MFJ.  I suspect it is sometimes easier to find a
peak and invert than finding a null.  I recall on the ANC-4 finding a good
null was sometimes difficult.


73,
Dick - KA5KKT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------
<snip>

[AC7AC]

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

[Gary Bartlett VE1RGB]

Enlist the support of RAC.  The noise issue has no respect for the 49th
parallel.

Gary, VE1RGB

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire
Sent: November 26, 2010 4:34 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Plasma TV Noise any ideas on how to filter it out.

I believe that anything that is worth griping about in public carries with
it the obligation to gripe to the regulatory agencies too.

Sure, the FCC isn't likely to even notice, much less act upon, a letter from
one person.

But, how about thousands of e-mails or phone calls a month from thousands of
licensees that doesn't stop? That would get a response.

The problem is that not enough people have complained to the agencies
involved. They don't have to be nasty complaints or scholarly technical
reports, just respectful complaints from injured people describing the
problem.

Similarly the complaints need to go to our representatives in Congress here
in the USA and their counterparts in other countries.

Sure, national organizations like the ARRL or RSGB do their part
representing their members, but the sheer weight of enough individual
complaints carries undeniable weight that cannot be ignored.  

Ron AC7AC


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[Stewart Baker]

Can only speak as I find Phil...

The UK TV licence includes a clause which says that the owner of
the television apparatus shall not permit it to cause interference.

If that was enforced, then all TV manufacturers would have to comply with
the regulations, or have no sales in the UK...

73
Stewart G3RXQ
On Fri, 26 Nov 2010 18:57:11 +0000, Phil Daniells, GJ4CBQ wrote:

> Panasonic stuff isn't all bad!
>
> We have two Panasonic LCD TV's here.  Both have very good pictures and
> neither is a QRM generator.
>
> Whilst I understand the motivation to boycott their products, I feel
> that giving the vote of confidence to their RF quiet products in
> preference to their heavily promoted, noisy, devices still sends an
> appropriate message to Panasonic.
>
> A few months back their website was running an article that actively
> encouraged consumers to purchase Plasma instead of LCD TV's by massively
> downplaying the drawbacks of Plasma.  Strangely there was no mention of QRM!
>
> I guess you might know this, Stewart.  Are there ANY quiet Plasma TV's
> out there?
>
> To get back vaguely on topic, the combination of K3 and LP-Pan displays
> a very distinctive signature for Plasma TV's.  Fortunately there aren't
> too many of them round here, they're not too loud and they're rarely all
> on at the same time.  Rather than filtering, I find the best defence is
> the MFJ-1025.  It cancels the Plasma QRM every time.
>
> 73,
>
> Phil, GJ4CBQ.
>
>
> On 26/11/2010 09:37, Stewart wrote:
>>
>> As I write this mail I am looking at the last Panasonic product in this house, a cordless phone.
>> When that has gone Kaput, that's it...No more Panasonic.
>>
>
>> 73
>> Stewart G3RXQ

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[ab2tc]

Hi,

Amen to that. At least in this case there is no doubt that the FCC has jurisdiction (as opposed to power line noise where they apparently don't ("The FCC does not regulate power companies" is a standard response of theirs)). So rest assured that I will complain first time I have any evidence of this type of noise. I guess I am still looking for some clues as to how to ID this noise source.

AB2TC - Knut

Ron D'Eau Claire wrote

I believe that anything that is worth griping about in public carries with
it the obligation to gripe to the regulatory agencies too.

Sure, the FCC isn't likely to even notice, much less act upon, a letter from
one person.

But, how about thousands of e-mails or phone calls a month from thousands of
licensees that doesn't stop? That would get a response.

The problem is that not enough people have complained to the agencies
involved. <snip>

[KD8NNU]

HI Dick,

 From your comment you prefer the MFJ unit.    However, I am concerned
about MFJ quality.  Do you have one of these that you use?

Thx
Don


On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Edward Dickinson, III wrote:

> Hi Don,
>
> The JPS ANC-4 is similar to and preceded the MFJ unit.  It lacks the
> 'Peak
> and Invert' feature of the MFJ.  I suspect it is sometimes easier to
> find a
> peak and invert than finding a null.  I recall on the ANC-4 finding a
> good
> null was sometimes difficult.
>
>
> 73,
> Dick - KA5KKT
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------
>
>
> The next question that I have is there any similar devices made by
> different companies so one can compare options.
>
> Thx
> Don
> KD8NNU
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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[KD8NNU]

Hi Knut,

Your comments are well noted and if the noise is not present I can
disconnect it from the system.  However when this noise is present, I am
unable to do anything.  So world class is relative to the enviornment
and there are times when my well are not world class. :-(

Don

On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 3:19 PM, ab2tc wrote:

> Hi,
>
> One thing is for sure: Once you have either one of these devices in
> front of
> your K3 receiver, you can wave good-bye to the world class blocking
> and IMD
> dynamic range of your receiver. I would consider this an absolute last
> resort. I don't think I could put up with the necessary knob twiddling
> required to locate the null, which will change each time you change
> frequency. So far as I cane tell no noisy plasma TVs in my
> neighborhood -
> knock on wood. Everyone in my family is happy with our 40" Sony LCD TV
> (which is quiet) so no pressure there.
>
> AB2TC - Knut
>
>
> Edward Dickinson, III-2 wrote:
>>
>> Hi Don,
>>
>> The JPS ANC-4 is similar to and preceded the MFJ unit.  It lacks the
>> 'Peak
>> and Invert' feature of the MFJ.  I suspect it is sometimes easier to
>> find
>> a
>> peak and invert than finding a null.  I recall on the ANC-4 finding a
>> good
>> null was sometimes difficult.
>>
>>
>> 73,
>> Dick - KA5KKT
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -------------------
>> <snip>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Plasma-TV-Noise-any-ideas-on-how-to-filter-it-out-tp5775346p5778348.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
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[Julian, G4ILO]

ab2tc wrote

Hi,

One thing is for sure: Once you have either one of these devices in front of your K3 receiver, you can wave good-bye to the world class blocking and IMD dynamic range of your receiver. I would consider this an absolute last resort. I don't think I could put up with the necessary knob twiddling required to locate the null, which will change each time you change frequency.

Believe me, if you have S9+20 interference without one of these devices, you put up with it. Yep, I've looked inside, build quality is terrible, SMD devices up on end and the rest of it. Signal path unnecessarily long pieces of hookup wire from the 259s to the PCB. It's hooked in via the KXV3 RX connectors so at least the TX signal doesn't go through it. But it works (and doesn't need much retuning as you change frequency.) 20m would be unusable without it, so the effect on blocking and IMD performance is unimportant, the alternative is QRT. Which would you choose?

[ab2tc]

Don't get me wrong Julian, I would make the same choice as you given the circumstances. It's just that the circumstances shouldn't be so. This whole thing with allowing devices that will for sure interfere and then leave it to the affected parties to resolve the problems when the inevitable interference occurs is a copout by regulatory agencies. This is the Part 95 clause in the USA and should never have happened. I am still praising and enjoying my relative freedom of interference. My neighborhood is a moderately densely populated suburban one with above ground utilities but no industrial sites within miles.

AB2TC - Knut

Julian, G4ILO wrote

<snip>
Believe me, if you have S9+20 interference without one of these devices, you put up with it. Yep, I've looked inside, build quality is terrible, SMD devices up on end and the rest of it. Signal path unnecessarily long pieces of hookup wire from the 259s to the PCB. It's hooked in via the KXV3 RX connectors so at least the TX signal doesn't go through it. But it works (and doesn't need much retuning as you change frequency.) 20m would be unusable without it, so the effect on blocking and IMD performance is unimportant, the alternative is QRT. Which would you choose?