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Reaching across the chronological divide

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Dear Santa

I have been really really good this year, you can even ask the smart one of the family. Will there be a K4 gift under the tree
Thanks sad looking puppy dog eyes Ken. WB8PKK
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Gordon LaPoint

Re: Dear Santa

Me too!
Gordon - N1MGO

On 12/17/2019 14:32 PM, Ken B via Elecraft wrote:

> I have been really really good this year, you can even ask the smart one of the family. Will there be a K4 gift under the tree
> Thanks sad looking puppy dog eyes Ken. WB8PKK
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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Operating from a retirement home

In reply to this post by Steve Hull

I am in no way in favor of renting, leasing or using a remote station,
for any purpose, other than use by and that of the primary owner.

As we say in the country, "if one can't run with the big dogs, then best
stay under the porch". Renting a station of that magnitude does not
make one a big dog.

73

Bob, K4TAX

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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Dear Santa

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

I commented to my wife some years ago, "my radio is old, my computer is
old, and my car is old. Wonder what I'll get for Christmas?".   She
responded: "yes and they are going to get older too!"    End of that
discussion.

Well my Elecraft K Line sure looks nice and is is an outstanding
performance package.    If Santa doesn't put one under your tree, guess
you've then been a bad boy.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 12/17/2019 1:32 PM, Ken B via Elecraft wrote:
> I have been really really good this year, you can even ask the smart one of the family. Will there be a K4 gift under the tree
> Thanks sad looking puppy dog eyes Ken. WB8PKK

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David Gilbert

Re: Operating from a retirement home

In reply to this post by Bill Levy

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your post was
tongue-in-cheek, but for one thing you have to schedule a station amid
competition from other hams wanting to do it. For another, the cost
isn't trivial if you plan to do it on a regular basis or use one of the
bigger stations. The example you cite costs about $1 per minute.

I think RHR is a fine idea for contests and one-off activities, but it
hardly makes sense for general access to the bands.

And THAT's why everyone isn't doing it ...

Dave AB7E

On 12/17/2019 11:41 AM, William Levy wrote:

> A laptop, an iPad or iPhone will allow you to ham all you want.
> Let other folks worry about the antennas and maintenance.
>
> www.remotehamradio.com
>
> I live in an apartment in NYC and I have huge towers with stacked antennas,
> 160mm 4 squares, 80 meter 4 squares located on the East Coast and the West
> Coast.
>
> Are you renting the space in your retirement home? Why not rent your radio
> too!
>
> This is such a simple solution I don't know why everyone isn't doing it.
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Tox

Re: Dear Santa

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

I asked in email, and earliest would be January.....after I get back into
the office :)

On Tue, Dec 17, 2019, 1:20 PM Bob McGraw K4TAX <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I commented to my wife some years ago, "my radio is old, my computer is
> old, and my car is old. Wonder what I'll get for Christmas?". She
> responded: "yes and they are going to get older too!" End of that
> discussion.
>
> Well my Elecraft K Line sure looks nice and is is an outstanding
> performance package. If Santa doesn't put one under your tree, guess
> you've then been a bad boy.
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
> On 12/17/2019 1:32 PM, Ken B via Elecraft wrote:
> > I have been really really good this year, you can even ask the smart one
> of the family. Will there be a K4 gift under the tree
> > Thanks sad looking puppy dog eyes Ken. WB8PKK
>
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David Gilbert

Re: Operating from a retirement home

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

That's a pretty simplistic attitude, and probably a hypocritical one as
well. Have you never rented a camper, or a cabin, or a car, or a
specialized tool? I doubt it you own everything you've ever used. More
to the point, have you never guest operated at somebody else's station,
or do you frown upon those that do?

Building a station is fine for those with the resources to do so, but
I'd posit that having the skills to operate one is at least as relevant
to the spirit of ham radio.

Dave AB7E

On 12/17/2019 2:15 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:

> I am in no way in favor of renting, leasing or using a remote station,
> for any purpose, other than use by and that of the primary owner.
>
> As we say in the country, "if one can't run with the big dogs, then
> best stay under the porch". Renting a station of that magnitude
> does not make one a big dog.
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX

Michael Walker

Re: Operating from a retirement home

Since I have done a lot of remote operating (just to get my HF station away
from the noise). And, it is my station, my station only and I built it
from scratch.

I have advised those of you getting on in years that the technology now
exists go get 3 or 4 of you on the same project, while you can and build
your own remote. You just need a quiet site with internet.

Since you are retired by this point, you might need a hobby for your
hobby. :)

Mike va3mw

On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 5:31 PM David Gilbert <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> That's a pretty simplistic attitude, and probably a hypocritical one as
> well. Have you never rented a camper, or a cabin, or a car, or a
> specialized tool? I doubt it you own everything you've ever used. More
> to the point, have you never guest operated at somebody else's station,
> or do you frown upon those that do?
>
> Building a station is fine for those with the resources to do so, but
> I'd posit that having the skills to operate one is at least as relevant
> to the spirit of ham radio.
>
> Dave AB7E
>
>
>
> On 12/17/2019 2:15 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
> > I am in no way in favor of renting, leasing or using a remote station,
> > for any purpose, other than use by and that of the primary owner.
> >
> > As we say in the country, "if one can't run with the big dogs, then
> > best stay under the porch". Renting a station of that magnitude
> > does not make one a big dog.
> >
> > 73
> >
> > Bob, K4TAX
>
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Jim Brown-10

Re: Operating from a retirement home

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

On 12/17/2019 2:30 PM, David Gilbert wrote:

> Building a station is fine for those with the resources to do so, but
> I'd posit that having the skills to operate one is at least as relevant
> to the spirit of ham radio.

Yep. And those of us with big stations have had lots of help from other
hams in building and maintaining them.

73, Jim K9YC
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Ignacy

Re: Reaching across the chronological divide

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

I go to club meetings in US. Almost no young people.

I went to a SM club. Young people. I went to a RL3 club. Young people. I
went to a 9A club. Mention of many young people.

Young people want camaraderie and joint activities. With clubs that own
buildings, everyone can come, be on the radio, talk, eat and drink. Also
participate in communal activities of setting up antennas and celebrating
the succces of it.

Being alone in an HOA restricted apartment with signals barely heard because
of compromised antenna and high RFI is hardly stimulating.

Ignacy, NO9E

--
Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
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Edward R Cole

Re: Operating from a retirement home

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

First off, I question the legality of renting a ham station for
profit (which this example seems to be). But it seems to be done for
renting stations in exotic (rare DX) locations with no heart attack
by hamdom. Treated as vacation rentals.

But owning your own remote located station using internet control
from our room in assisted living seems a viable alternative.

Many of these senior facilities ban use of RF devices due to RFI
concerns with pace maker users or medical equipment. Maybe one could
use a 5w HT. External antennas are problem-some. My concept was
installing my ham station in a "toy hauler" trailer with crank-up
tower that could be moved and located in a convenient
location. Also, handy as emmcom station.

Also, some ham groups form a kind of club to jointly own a "super
station" which members share. Such a group in Switzerland own a
45-foot dish which they share using for eme. But organized as not-for-profit.

I do expect any contest/award operations to claim the physical
transmitter location (instead of the remote operator's qth).

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
[hidden email]

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David Gilbert

Re: Operating from a retirement home

The legality of renting a station has been hashed over many times, and I
think it's pretty clear that the FCC doesn't see any difference between
somebody renting their house that happens to have a station in it than
they do for somebody renting a remotely operated station. The FCC
specifies that a control operator needs to be present at all times, but
that control point can be from a remote location as well .. ala VHF/UHF
mountaintop repeaters. In any case outfits like RHR require that anyone
using their stations have a legitimate ham radio license, which makes
them the approved control operator.

In other words, the owner of the station is renting his gear ... he's
not selling the "communication" itself that is specified in the FCC
rules. RHR has been operating on a large scale for quite some time and
almost for sure would have come into view of the FCC long ago.

And yes, every contest or award program I'm aware of requires that the
operation claim the location of the gear, not the operator.

73,
Dave AB7E

On 12/17/2019 9:56 PM, Edward R Cole wrote:

> First off, I question the legality of renting a ham station for profit
> (which this example seems to be). But it seems to be done for renting
> stations in exotic (rare DX) locations with no heart attack by
> hamdom. Treated as vacation rentals.
>
> But owning your own remote located station using internet control from
> our room in assisted living seems a viable alternative.
>
> Many of these senior facilities ban use of RF devices due to RFI
> concerns with pace maker users or medical equipment. Maybe one could
> use a 5w HT. External antennas are problem-some. My concept was
> installing my ham station in a "toy hauler" trailer with crank-up
> tower that could be moved and located in a convenient location. Also,
> handy as emmcom station.
>
> Also, some ham groups form a kind of club to jointly own a "super
> station" which members share. Such a group in Switzerland own a
> 45-foot dish which they share using for eme. But organized as
> not-for-profit.
>
> I do expect any contest/award operations to claim the physical
> transmitter location (instead of the remote operator's qth).
>
> 73, Ed - KL7UW
> http://www.kl7uw.com
> Dubus-NA Business mail:
> [hidden email]

Jim Brown-10

Re: Reaching across the chronological divide

In reply to this post by Ignacy

I think this is a very important observation, Ignacy! Remembering my own
beginnings in ham radio, the local club that welcomed me, taught me CW,
electronics and radio concepts, and even how to operate, met in a
dedicated club room that was downstairs from a member's TV repair shop
(this was in 1954). Upstairs was his very impressive rack mounted amp
with a pair of 813's that glowed bright. That dedicated physical space
was more important than we may have realized at the time!

Fast forward to today, and much of the camaraderie in our contesting
club relates to participation in multi-ops at a handful of big stations,
and in county expeditions for CQP. The most recent young person I
remember was a very bright YL who got active in both our local club and
NCCC (big contesting club) during her jr and sr HS years, then
disappeared into the EE program at Univ of Cal Santa Cruz. That was five
years ago.

73, Jim K9YC

On 12/17/2019 7:20 PM, Ignacy wrote:
> I went to a SM club. Young people. I went to a RL3 club. Young people. I
> went to a 9A club. Mention of many young people.
>
> Young people want camaraderie and joint activities. With clubs that own
> buildings, everyone can come, be on the radio, talk, eat and drink. Also
> participate in communal activities of setting up antennas and celebrating
> the succces of it.

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Phil Kane-2

Re: Operating from a retirement home

In reply to this post by na5n

On 12/17/2019 11:15 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> I looked forward to our 15-20 minute QSOs 2-3 times a week, realizing CW
> and ham radio was his only life line to the world. So kudos to the
> nursing home that accommodated his ham radio.
>
> Sadly, one day his CQs stopped.

A revered member of our Golden Gate Telephone Pioneers Radio Club was in
his final hours and his last contact was holding his wife's hand and
squeezing "73 es 88" just before he slipped off SK. That was may years
ago and we still miss him.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Tox

Re: Operating from a retirement home

>holding his wife's hand and squeezing "73 es 88" just before he slipped off SK

oh, that puts a tear in the eye...

Scott
AD6YT
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Paul Lannuier-2

Re: Reaching Across the Chronological Divide

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

Chariot racing wasn’t about the chariots; it was about the racing. It was fundamentally no different than modern F1 racing.

73,
WW2PT

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 14, 2019, at 12:24 PM, Dauer, Edward <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I wonder if the chariot racers of two or three milennia ago lamented the death of their sport.
>
> I too tried to interest my grandson, now 13, in the ham radio hobby, but with no success. He just couldn't see the point. So I reflected on when I was 13 with a newly printed Novice ticket, some 62 years ago, and when I was captivated for life by the wizardry of radio electronics, ionospheric physics, the smell of solder and rosin (and of exploding caps), the excitement of doing successfully what most people can't do at all, the fascination of international communications . . . . . all of the things we now-grandpas found and still find attractive.
>
> He found it a yawn.
>
> I reflected on it some. So what? The ham radio industry will care, and those who still believe that ham radio is imperative for emergency communications will care (though let's be honest -- cellular and satellite communications have taken much of the wind out of that sail.) But if I enjoy it and you enjoy it, and we both do it, why should we fret if other people don't? If amateur radio evolves in ways that are attractive to the next generation, all to the good. And a form of natural selection may shape the evolution that way. But if ham radio as we know it today doesn't get past a generational divide, if the mutations that survive an evolutionary end point don't occur, does it really matter?
>
> Excuse the philosophy, but I have to ask the question: Is our culture really impoverished by the demise of chariot racing? Or is that sport still with us, only morphed over time into something the next generation found attractive.
>
> OK. Break time over. Back to the ten-meter contest. Curse this solar minimum!
>
> Ted, KN1CBR
>
>
>> On 12/13/2019 9:36 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
>>
>> This of course is a discussion that isn't likely to die before we do,
>> but I really don't think that any significant portion of today's youth
>> will ever look at amateur radio like we do.? I wish that weren't the
>> case, but reality bites.
>>
>> 1.? The major lure of amateur radio for most of us was the ability to
>> freely talk to faraway places.? Young people today can do that with FM
>> quality and yet often they don't ... they text or chat via message
>> groups and forums.
>>
>> 2.? Communicating today is license free, and while even now with
>> today's lesser requirements getting an amateur radio license is maybe
>> not a roadblock it's a nuisance to have to study for something that
>> you don't otherwise care about.
>>
>> 3.? Effectively communicating today is far cheaper hardware-wise than
>> for amateur radio, especially for long distances.
>>
>> 4.? Communicating today is independent of time of day or position in
>> the sunspot cycle.
>>
>> 5.? A basic competency in amateur radio was once considered a stepping
>> stone to a technical career.? That is hardly the case today.? In fact,
>> I remember one manager of a test department in another company telling
>> me he tried to avoid hiring hams because they talked about it too much
>> on the job.
>>
>> One thing I do believe has carryover appeal is the spirit of
>> competition.? Humans in general always seem keen to compete at almost
>> anything ... from eating hot dogs to running to vicariously watching
>> football to quilting to barbeque.? Young people today have video games
>> that provide a FAR richer competitive environment than any ham radio
>> contest (I do both, by the way), and I've always thought that one way
>> to drum up interest in ham radio is to develop a contest format that
>> has similar elements.? Ham radio contests are essentially endurance
>> events that involve independent action throughout the contest with the
>> comparison occurring at the end, and often weeks or months later.?
>> Video games require different but otherwise comparable proficiency
>> (both mental and physical) but involve real time counter moves to any
>> opponent. The closest we hams come to offsetting somebody we view as
>> competition is to steal their frequency or QRM them.? I'm not at all
>> suggesting that we do any such thing, but a contest where we could
>> take some action that subtracted from somebody else's score is the
>> kind of thing I'm talking about.? And no, I don't know how to do that
>> either, but it illustrates what I'm talking about.
>>
>> It's not any surprise to me that contesting is one of the few
>> surviving ham radio activities with high participation.? Even
>> ragchewing has practically died out, and if anyone disputes that take
>> a look at how much time you spend each week reading email reflectors
>> versus being on the air (other than in a contest).
>>
>> I'm not really sure what Wayne was referring to here, and maybe he
>> implied that same thing that I'm saying, but we aren't going to bring
>> young folks into the hobby by trying to convince them that the same
>> things that appealed to us 40 years ago are going to appeal to them.?
>> This isn't a communication or publicity problem. In spite of the
>> comments from hams I've seen over the years, most young people pretty
>> much know the general framework of ham radio and they've simply
>> rejected it in favor of other things.? There are always a few
>> exceptions, of course, but I'd bet $100 that the bulk of those young
>> people who pop up online or in QST as shining examples of young blood
>> in the hobby are nowhere to be found two years later.
>>
>> If for any reason we want young folks to embrace the hobby, the hobby
>> itself is going to have to adapt.? That most of us seem unable to
>> understand that fact is probably another facet of the problem ...
>> we're old and inflexible (in both appearance and in fact), which
>> doesn't help the image of the hobby one wit.? The pictures from Dayton
>> or any other hamfest have the same appeal as if they were taken at a
>> Lawrence Welk concert.
>>
>> I guarantee that those of us who are still above ground five years
>> from now will be having this same discussion, and it won't be because
>> we weren't persuasive enough.
>>
>> 73,
>> Dave?? AB7E
>>
>
>
>
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: Reaching Across the Chronological Divide

There is a constant refrain about "communicating with far away places."
No doubt that has been one attraction of our hobby. For myself, I was
never particularly interested in "communicating." For me it was mastery
of a technical environment. Communicating was just the proof that the
environment had been mastered. Another way of saying this -maybe- is
technology versus sociology. There are many traditional activities that
have been replaced by more modern versions [eg, horses versus cars,
walking versus bicycling, bow/arrow versus guns]. Yet, there is still
interest in the "old way," because the earlier challenges remain in
spite of more modern solutions. Getting a signal from my radio, out into
the ether, bouncing it off the ionosphere, and back down on the other
side is still a challenge. Satellite links and the internet don't negate
the ionospheric challenge. Perhaps engaging prospective hams in the
technical challenges of the hobby will brings in those who like such
challenges. Communicating may be the benny on the other side of mastery.

...robert KE2WY

On 12/22/2019 16:06, Paul Lannuier wrote:

> Chariot racing wasn’t about the chariots; it was about the racing. It was fundamentally no different than modern F1 racing.
>
> 73,
> WW2PT
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Dec 14, 2019, at 12:24 PM, Dauer, Edward <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I wonder if the chariot racers of two or three milennia ago lamented the death of their sport.
>>
>> I too tried to interest my grandson, now 13, in the ham radio hobby, but with no success. He just couldn't see the point. So I reflected on when I was 13 with a newly printed Novice ticket, some 62 years ago, and when I was captivated for life by the wizardry of radio electronics, ionospheric physics, the smell of solder and rosin (and of exploding caps), the excitement of doing successfully what most people can't do at all, the fascination of international communications . . . . . all of the things we now-grandpas found and still find attractive.
>>
>> He found it a yawn.
>>
>> I reflected on it some. So what? The ham radio industry will care, and those who still believe that ham radio is imperative for emergency communications will care (though let's be honest -- cellular and satellite communications have taken much of the wind out of that sail.) But if I enjoy it and you enjoy it, and we both do it, why should we fret if other people don't? If amateur radio evolves in ways that are attractive to the next generation, all to the good. And a form of natural selection may shape the evolution that way. But if ham radio as we know it today doesn't get past a generational divide, if the mutations that survive an evolutionary end point don't occur, does it really matter?
>>
>> Excuse the philosophy, but I have to ask the question: Is our culture really impoverished by the demise of chariot racing? Or is that sport still with us, only morphed over time into something the next generation found attractive.
>>
>> OK. Break time over. Back to the ten-meter contest. Curse this solar minimum!
>>
>> Ted, KN1CBR
>>
>>
>>> On 12/13/2019 9:36 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
>>>
>>> This of course is a discussion that isn't likely to die before we do,
>>> but I really don't think that any significant portion of today's youth
>>> will ever look at amateur radio like we do.? I wish that weren't the
>>> case, but reality bites.
>>>
>>> 1.? The major lure of amateur radio for most of us was the ability to
>>> freely talk to faraway places.? Young people today can do that with FM
>>> quality and yet often they don't ... they text or chat via message
>>> groups and forums.
>>>
>>> 2.? Communicating today is license free, and while even now with
>>> today's lesser requirements getting an amateur radio license is maybe
>>> not a roadblock it's a nuisance to have to study for something that
>>> you don't otherwise care about.
>>>
>>> 3.? Effectively communicating today is far cheaper hardware-wise than
>>> for amateur radio, especially for long distances.
>>>
>>> 4.? Communicating today is independent of time of day or position in
>>> the sunspot cycle.
>>>
>>> 5.? A basic competency in amateur radio was once considered a stepping
>>> stone to a technical career.? That is hardly the case today.? In fact,
>>> I remember one manager of a test department in another company telling
>>> me he tried to avoid hiring hams because they talked about it too much
>>> on the job.
>>>
>>> One thing I do believe has carryover appeal is the spirit of
>>> competition.? Humans in general always seem keen to compete at almost
>>> anything ... from eating hot dogs to running to vicariously watching
>>> football to quilting to barbeque.? Young people today have video games
>>> that provide a FAR richer competitive environment than any ham radio
>>> contest (I do both, by the way), and I've always thought that one way
>>> to drum up interest in ham radio is to develop a contest format that
>>> has similar elements.? Ham radio contests are essentially endurance
>>> events that involve independent action throughout the contest with the
>>> comparison occurring at the end, and often weeks or months later.?
>>> Video games require different but otherwise comparable proficiency
>>> (both mental and physical) but involve real time counter moves to any
>>> opponent. The closest we hams come to offsetting somebody we view as
>>> competition is to steal their frequency or QRM them.? I'm not at all
>>> suggesting that we do any such thing, but a contest where we could
>>> take some action that subtracted from somebody else's score is the
>>> kind of thing I'm talking about.? And no, I don't know how to do that
>>> either, but it illustrates what I'm talking about.
>>>
>>> It's not any surprise to me that contesting is one of the few
>>> surviving ham radio activities with high participation.? Even
>>> ragchewing has practically died out, and if anyone disputes that take
>>> a look at how much time you spend each week reading email reflectors
>>> versus being on the air (other than in a contest).
>>>
>>> I'm not really sure what Wayne was referring to here, and maybe he
>>> implied that same thing that I'm saying, but we aren't going to bring
>>> young folks into the hobby by trying to convince them that the same
>>> things that appealed to us 40 years ago are going to appeal to them.?
>>> This isn't a communication or publicity problem. In spite of the
>>> comments from hams I've seen over the years, most young people pretty
>>> much know the general framework of ham radio and they've simply
>>> rejected it in favor of other things.? There are always a few
>>> exceptions, of course, but I'd bet $100 that the bulk of those young
>>> people who pop up online or in QST as shining examples of young blood
>>> in the hobby are nowhere to be found two years later.
>>>
>>> If for any reason we want young folks to embrace the hobby, the hobby
>>> itself is going to have to adapt.? That most of us seem unable to
>>> understand that fact is probably another facet of the problem ...
>>> we're old and inflexible (in both appearance and in fact), which
>>> doesn't help the image of the hobby one wit.? The pictures from Dayton
>>> or any other hamfest have the same appeal as if they were taken at a
>>> Lawrence Welk concert.
>>>
>>> I guarantee that those of us who are still above ground five years
>>> from now will be having this same discussion, and it won't be because
>>> we weren't persuasive enough.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Dave?? AB7E
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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> ______________________________________________________________
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--
Robert G Strickland, PhD ABPH - KE2WY
[hidden email]
Syracuse, New York, USA
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David Gilbert

Re: Reaching Across the Chronological Divide

I think we already discussed that aspect, and the point is that young
people with a technological inclination are far more likely to be
interested in software, or robotics, or biomedical ... stuff that has
more relevance to advancing the world and actually leading to a job. It
might be a challenge to bounce a signal of the ionosphere but people
were doing that 100 years ago.

73,
Dave AB7E

On 12/22/2019 6:52 PM, Robert G Strickland via Elecraft wrote:

> There is a constant refrain about "communicating with far away
> places." No doubt that has been one attraction of our hobby. For
> myself, I was never particularly interested in "communicating." For me
> it was mastery of a technical environment. Communicating was just the
> proof that the environment had been mastered. Another way of saying
> this -maybe- is technology versus sociology. There are many
> traditional activities that have been replaced by more modern versions
> [eg, horses versus cars, walking versus bicycling, bow/arrow versus
> guns]. Yet, there is still interest in the "old way," because the
> earlier challenges remain in spite of more modern solutions. Getting a
> signal from my radio, out into the ether, bouncing it off the
> ionosphere, and back down on the other side is still a challenge.
> Satellite links and the internet don't negate the ionospheric
> challenge. Perhaps engaging prospective hams in the technical
> challenges of the hobby will brings in those who like such challenges.
> Communicating may be the benny on the other side of mastery.
>
> ...robert KE2WY
>
> On 12/22/2019 16:06, Paul Lannuier wrote:
>> Chariot racing wasn’t about the chariots; it was about the racing. It
>> was fundamentally no different than modern F1 racing.
>>
>> 73,
>> WW2PT
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On Dec 14, 2019, at 12:24 PM, Dauer, Edward <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I wonder if the chariot racers of two or three milennia ago lamented
>>> the death of their sport.
>>>
>>> I too tried to interest my grandson, now 13, in the ham radio hobby,
>>> but with no success. He just couldn't see the point. So I reflected
>>> on when I was 13 with a newly printed Novice ticket, some 62 years
>>> ago, and when I was captivated for life by the wizardry of radio
>>> electronics, ionospheric physics, the smell of solder and rosin (and
>>> of exploding caps), the excitement of doing successfully what most
>>> people can't do at all, the fascination of international
>>> communications . . . . . all of the things we now-grandpas found and
>>> still find attractive.
>>>
>>> He found it a yawn.
>>>
>>> I reflected on it some. So what? The ham radio industry will care,
>>> and those who still believe that ham radio is imperative for
>>> emergency communications will care (though let's be honest --
>>> cellular and satellite communications have taken much of the wind
>>> out of that sail.) But if I enjoy it and you enjoy it, and we both
>>> do it, why should we fret if other people don't? If amateur radio
>>> evolves in ways that are attractive to the next generation, all to
>>> the good. And a form of natural selection may shape the evolution
>>> that way. But if ham radio as we know it today doesn't get past a
>>> generational divide, if the mutations that survive an evolutionary
>>> end point don't occur, does it really matter?
>>>
>>> Excuse the philosophy, but I have to ask the question: Is our
>>> culture really impoverished by the demise of chariot racing? Or is
>>> that sport still with us, only morphed over time into something the
>>> next generation found attractive.
>>>
>>> OK. Break time over. Back to the ten-meter contest. Curse this
>>> solar minimum!
>>>
>>> Ted, KN1CBR
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 12/13/2019 9:36 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This of course is a discussion that isn't likely to die before we do,
>>>> but I really don't think that any significant portion of today's youth
>>>> will ever look at amateur radio like we do.? I wish that weren't the
>>>> case, but reality bites.
>>>>
>>>> 1.? The major lure of amateur radio for most of us was the ability to
>>>> freely talk to faraway places.? Young people today can do that with FM
>>>> quality and yet often they don't ... they text or chat via message
>>>> groups and forums.
>>>>
>>>> 2.? Communicating today is license free, and while even now with
>>>> today's lesser requirements getting an amateur radio license is maybe
>>>> not a roadblock it's a nuisance to have to study for something that
>>>> you don't otherwise care about.
>>>>
>>>> 3.? Effectively communicating today is far cheaper hardware-wise than
>>>> for amateur radio, especially for long distances.
>>>>
>>>> 4.? Communicating today is independent of time of day or position in
>>>> the sunspot cycle.
>>>>
>>>> 5.? A basic competency in amateur radio was once considered a stepping
>>>> stone to a technical career.? That is hardly the case today.? In fact,
>>>> I remember one manager of a test department in another company telling
>>>> me he tried to avoid hiring hams because they talked about it too much
>>>> on the job.
>>>>
>>>> One thing I do believe has carryover appeal is the spirit of
>>>> competition.? Humans in general always seem keen to compete at almost
>>>> anything ... from eating hot dogs to running to vicariously watching
>>>> football to quilting to barbeque.? Young people today have video games
>>>> that provide a FAR richer competitive environment than any ham radio
>>>> contest (I do both, by the way), and I've always thought that one way
>>>> to drum up interest in ham radio is to develop a contest format that
>>>> has similar elements.? Ham radio contests are essentially endurance
>>>> events that involve independent action throughout the contest with the
>>>> comparison occurring at the end, and often weeks or months later.?
>>>> Video games require different but otherwise comparable proficiency
>>>> (both mental and physical) but involve real time counter moves to any
>>>> opponent. The closest we hams come to offsetting somebody we view as
>>>> competition is to steal their frequency or QRM them.? I'm not at all
>>>> suggesting that we do any such thing, but a contest where we could
>>>> take some action that subtracted from somebody else's score is the
>>>> kind of thing I'm talking about.? And no, I don't know how to do that
>>>> either, but it illustrates what I'm talking about.
>>>>
>>>> It's not any surprise to me that contesting is one of the few
>>>> surviving ham radio activities with high participation.? Even
>>>> ragchewing has practically died out, and if anyone disputes that take
>>>> a look at how much time you spend each week reading email reflectors
>>>> versus being on the air (other than in a contest).
>>>>
>>>> I'm not really sure what Wayne was referring to here, and maybe he
>>>> implied that same thing that I'm saying, but we aren't going to bring
>>>> young folks into the hobby by trying to convince them that the same
>>>> things that appealed to us 40 years ago are going to appeal to them.?
>>>> This isn't a communication or publicity problem. In spite of the
>>>> comments from hams I've seen over the years, most young people pretty
>>>> much know the general framework of ham radio and they've simply
>>>> rejected it in favor of other things.? There are always a few
>>>> exceptions, of course, but I'd bet $100 that the bulk of those young
>>>> people who pop up online or in QST as shining examples of young blood
>>>> in the hobby are nowhere to be found two years later.
>>>>
>>>> If for any reason we want young folks to embrace the hobby, the hobby
>>>> itself is going to have to adapt.? That most of us seem unable to
>>>> understand that fact is probably another facet of the problem ...
>>>> we're old and inflexible (in both appearance and in fact), which
>>>> doesn't help the image of the hobby one wit.? The pictures from Dayton
>>>> or any other hamfest have the same appeal as if they were taken at a
>>>> Lawrence Welk concert.
>>>>
>>>> I guarantee that those of us who are still above ground five years
>>>> from now will be having this same discussion, and it won't be because
>>>> we weren't persuasive enough.
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>> Dave?? AB7E
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>

Don Wilhelm

Re: Reaching Across the Chronological Divide

I think we need to be focusing on the personal aspect of one on one
communications with someone who we have never met - without the need for
the internet, Facebook or any other internet app.
It is a thrill to me to be able to have a conversation with someone new
via ham radio.

Of course, even that element is fading out in ham radio with the
emphasis on quick DX contacts or contest points. Ragchewing with
someone new to get to know something about them personally or their
location is what gives me the thrill of ham radio. So sad to see that
element being diminished.

Bring ragchewing back, and I am not talking about the nets on 80 and 40
meters, it is reaching out to someone new and telling a bit about
ourselves and getting the same in return.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/22/2019 11:17 PM, David Gilbert wrote:

>
> I think we already discussed that aspect, and the point is that young
> people with a technological inclination are far more likely to be
> interested in software, or robotics, or biomedical ... stuff that has
> more relevance to advancing the world and actually leading to a job. It
> might be a challenge to bounce a signal of the ionosphere but people
> were doing that 100 years ago.
>
> 73,
> Dave AB7E
>
>
> On 12/22/2019 6:52 PM, Robert G Strickland via Elecraft wrote:
>> There is a constant refrain about "communicating with far away
>> places." No doubt that has been one attraction of our hobby. For
>> myself, I was never particularly interested in "communicating." For me
>> it was mastery of a technical environment. Communicating was just the
>> proof that the environment had been mastered. Another way of saying
>> this -maybe- is technology versus sociology. There are many
>> traditional activities that have been replaced by more modern versions
>> [eg, horses versus cars, walking versus bicycling, bow/arrow versus
>> guns]. Yet, there is still interest in the "old way," because the
>> earlier challenges remain in spite of more modern solutions. Getting a
>> signal from my radio, out into the ether, bouncing it off the
>> ionosphere, and back down on the other side is still a challenge.
>> Satellite links and the internet don't negate the ionospheric
>> challenge. Perhaps engaging prospective hams in the technical
>> challenges of the hobby will brings in those who like such challenges.
>> Communicating may be the benny on the other side of mastery.
>>

Ken G Kopp

Re: Reaching Across the Chronological Divide

Well said, Don ...

73

K0PP

On Sun, Dec 22, 2019, 21:37 Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think we need to be focusing on the personal aspect of one on one
> communications with someone who we have never met - without the need for
> the internet, Facebook or any other internet app.
> It is a thrill to me to be able to have a conversation with someone new
> via ham radio.
>
> Of course, even that element is fading out in ham radio with the
> emphasis on quick DX contacts or contest points. Ragchewing with
> someone new to get to know something about them personally or their
> location is what gives me the thrill of ham radio. So sad to see that
> element being diminished.
>
> Bring ragchewing back, and I am not talking about the nets on 80 and 40
> meters, it is reaching out to someone new and telling a bit about
> ourselves and getting the same in return.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 12/22/2019 11:17 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
> >
> > I think we already discussed that aspect, and the point is that young
> > people with a technological inclination are far more likely to be
> > interested in software, or robotics, or biomedical ... stuff that has
> > more relevance to advancing the world and actually leading to a job. It
> > might be a challenge to bounce a signal of the ionosphere but people
> > were doing that 100 years ago.
> >
> > 73,
> > Dave AB7E
> >
> >
> > On 12/22/2019 6:52 PM, Robert G Strickland via Elecraft wrote:
> >> There is a constant refrain about "communicating with far away
> >> places." No doubt that has been one attraction of our hobby. For
> >> myself, I was never particularly interested in "communicating." For me
> >> it was mastery of a technical environment. Communicating was just the
> >> proof that the environment had been mastered. Another way of saying
> >> this -maybe- is technology versus sociology. There are many
> >> traditional activities that have been replaced by more modern versions
> >> [eg, horses versus cars, walking versus bicycling, bow/arrow versus
> >> guns]. Yet, there is still interest in the "old way," because the
> >> earlier challenges remain in spite of more modern solutions. Getting a
> >> signal from my radio, out into the ether, bouncing it off the
> >> ionosphere, and back down on the other side is still a challenge.
> >> Satellite links and the internet don't negate the ionospheric
> >> challenge. Perhaps engaging prospective hams in the technical
> >> challenges of the hobby will brings in those who like such challenges.
> >> Communicating may be the benny on the other side of mastery.
> >>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

12345