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Side Effects of QRQ On The K3

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Toby Pennington

Side Effects of QRQ On The K3

I have not seen anything posted on this in a long time, so thought I
would revisit it to see if any progress had been made in the area of the
QRQ feature. This feature was created so that cw ops could send with
their keyboards, or in my case on a paddle at around 25 wpm, and have
smooth cw being sent out. Otherwise, without QRQ being turned on. the
cw sounds choppy even at 25 to 30 wpm.

The only problem with this is that when QRQ is turned on, we lose some
functions like shift, and hi and lo cut. If we turn off QRQ our cw
sounds choppy and the faster you go the worse it gets. QRQ is turned on
and off with the RIT buttion or in the menu.

The other evening I was on the air with a friend and some very close qrm
came up on frequency, we had to turn off QRQ in order to get the shift
to work and our cw sending got choppy.

The other issue is just using the RIT, this turns off the QRQ and
again your cw begins to sound worse. So, you have RIT, Shift, Hi and
Lo cut that do not function with QRQ turned on, and you need QRQ to
have a good sound on cw.

This is not a normal way for a receiver to function, and although I
appreciate the workaround, I wonder if a more permanent solution might
be on the way.

Toby K4NH

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NK7Z

Re: Side Effects of QRQ On The K3

Hi Toby,

Could you expand a bit on the choppy CW thing? I am a new K3 person,
and I just bought my K3. All this talk about choppy CW makes me a bit
apprehensive. If I use a normal Vibroplex iambic paddle, and send well
am I going to have a problem, or is this something about using the KBD
option?
--
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
for Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
for MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info

On Sat, 2014-04-12 at 15:21 -0400, Toby Pennington wrote:

> I have not seen anything posted on this in a long time, so thought I
> would revisit it to see if any progress had been made in the area of the
> QRQ feature. This feature was created so that cw ops could send with
> their keyboards, or in my case on a paddle at around 25 wpm, and have
> smooth cw being sent out. Otherwise, without QRQ being turned on. the
> cw sounds choppy even at 25 to 30 wpm.
>
> The only problem with this is that when QRQ is turned on, we lose some
> functions like shift, and hi and lo cut. If we turn off QRQ our cw
> sounds choppy and the faster you go the worse it gets. QRQ is turned on
> and off with the RIT buttion or in the menu.
>
> The other evening I was on the air with a friend and some very close qrm
> came up on frequency, we had to turn off QRQ in order to get the shift
> to work and our cw sending got choppy.
>
> The other issue is just using the RIT, this turns off the QRQ and
> again your cw begins to sound worse. So, you have RIT, Shift, Hi and
> Lo cut that do not function with QRQ turned on, and you need QRQ to
> have a good sound on cw.
>
> This is not a normal way for a receiver to function, and although I
> appreciate the workaround, I wonder if a more permanent solution might
> be on the way.
>
> Toby K4NH
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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KD8RQE

Re: Side Effects of QRQ On The K3

In reply to this post by Toby Pennington

Is this a problem only with the K3 keyer, or is it also present if an
external keyer (such as the Begali CW machine) is used?

Mike KD8RQE

In a message dated 4/12/2014 3:23:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[hidden email] writes:

I have not seen anything posted on this in a long time, so thought I
would revisit it to see if any progress had been made in the area of the
QRQ feature. This feature was created so that cw ops could send with
their keyboards, or in my case on a paddle at around 25 wpm, and have
smooth cw being sent out. Otherwise, without QRQ being turned on. the
cw sounds choppy even at 25 to 30 wpm.

The only problem with this is that when QRQ is turned on, we lose some
functions like shift, and hi and lo cut. If we turn off QRQ our cw
sounds choppy and the faster you go the worse it gets. QRQ is turned on
and off with the RIT buttion or in the menu.

The other evening I was on the air with a friend and some very close qrm
came up on frequency, we had to turn off QRQ in order to get the shift
to work and our cw sending got choppy.

The other issue is just using the RIT, this turns off the QRQ and
again your cw begins to sound worse. So, you have RIT, Shift, Hi and
Lo cut that do not function with QRQ turned on, and you need QRQ to
have a good sound on cw.

This is not a normal way for a receiver to function, and although I
appreciate the workaround, I wonder if a more permanent solution might
be on the way.

Toby K4NH

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k6dgw

Re: Side Effects of QRQ On The K3

In reply to this post by NK7Z

On 4/12/2014 1:07 PM, David Cole wrote:

> Could you expand a bit on the choppy CW thing? I am a new K3 person,
> and I just bought my K3. All this talk about choppy CW makes me a bit
> apprehensive. If I use a normal Vibroplex iambic paddle, and send well
> am I going to have a problem, or is this something about using the KBD
> option?

Short answer: No and you can stop being apprehensive about it. :-)

You will plug in your paddle [and/or external keyer and/or computer],
and you will be sending clickless CW with full-QSK. Had the subject not
come up [again] on this email list, the odds that you'd ever encounter
and notice its effects are vanishingly small unless you are a 60+ WPM
full QSK operator. I operate in a lot of CW contests with N1MM driving
a WinKeyUSB at between 30 and 35 WPM, KPA500, full QSK, QRQ option off.
No one has ever given me a QSD. When I've specifically asked friends
[good CW ops] to evaluate my keying, they tell me it's great. My "fist"
is another matter of course. :-)

It's another example of how you have to filter a list like this one.
The variety of K3 owners is vast, and some push the limits in various
ways and at those limits, they start seeing things the vast majority of
us never do or ever will. They tend to discuss them here, which is
fine. Those using the K3 as the IF for transverters up to the microwave
ranges are very concerned about frequency stability, and often discuss
it on this list too. Your K3 will be rock-solid for you on HF, no need
for apprehension over that either.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
- www.cqp.org

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alsopb

Re: Side Effects of QRQ On The K3

Not quite so. Increase your TX DLY to 25 ms and listen to your CW.
At 8ms (default), it behaves as you say. Significantly higher values
cause QSD. It doesn't matter if you're using the internal keyer or an
external keyer.

73 DE Brian/K3KO

On 4/12/2014 22:35, Fred Jensen wrote:

> On 4/12/2014 1:07 PM, David Cole wrote:
>
>> Could you expand a bit on the choppy CW thing? I am a new K3 person,
>> and I just bought my K3. All this talk about choppy CW makes me a bit
>> apprehensive. If I use a normal Vibroplex iambic paddle, and send well
>> am I going to have a problem, or is this something about using the KBD
>> option?
>
> Short answer: No and you can stop being apprehensive about it. :-)
>
> You will plug in your paddle [and/or external keyer and/or computer],
> and you will be sending clickless CW with full-QSK. Had the subject not
> come up [again] on this email list, the odds that you'd ever encounter
> and notice its effects are vanishingly small unless you are a 60+ WPM
> full QSK operator. I operate in a lot of CW contests with N1MM driving
> a WinKeyUSB at between 30 and 35 WPM, KPA500, full QSK, QRQ option off.
> No one has ever given me a QSD. When I've specifically asked friends
> [good CW ops] to evaluate my keying, they tell me it's great. My "fist"
> is another matter of course. :-)
>
> It's another example of how you have to filter a list like this one. The
> variety of K3 owners is vast, and some push the limits in various ways
> and at those limits, they start seeing things the vast majority of us
> never do or ever will. They tend to discuss them here, which is fine.
> Those using the K3 as the IF for transverters up to the microwave ranges
> are very concerned about frequency stability, and often discuss it on
> this list too. Your K3 will be rock-solid for you on HF, no need for
> apprehension over that either.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
> - www.cqp.org
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>
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NK7Z

Re: Side Effects of QRQ On The K3

In reply to this post by k6dgw

Thank you!!! I was starting to get worried that the K3 could not
generate CW... :)
--
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
for Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
for MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info

On Sat, 2014-04-12 at 15:35 -0700, Fred Jensen wrote:

> On 4/12/2014 1:07 PM, David Cole wrote:
>
> > Could you expand a bit on the choppy CW thing? I am a new K3 person,
> > and I just bought my K3. All this talk about choppy CW makes me a bit
> > apprehensive. If I use a normal Vibroplex iambic paddle, and send well
> > am I going to have a problem, or is this something about using the KBD
> > option?
>
> Short answer: No and you can stop being apprehensive about it. :-)
>
> You will plug in your paddle [and/or external keyer and/or computer],
> and you will be sending clickless CW with full-QSK. Had the subject not
> come up [again] on this email list, the odds that you'd ever encounter
> and notice its effects are vanishingly small unless you are a 60+ WPM
> full QSK operator. I operate in a lot of CW contests with N1MM driving
> a WinKeyUSB at between 30 and 35 WPM, KPA500, full QSK, QRQ option off.
> No one has ever given me a QSD. When I've specifically asked friends
> [good CW ops] to evaluate my keying, they tell me it's great. My "fist"
> is another matter of course. :-)
>
> It's another example of how you have to filter a list like this one.
> The variety of K3 owners is vast, and some push the limits in various
> ways and at those limits, they start seeing things the vast majority of
> us never do or ever will. They tend to discuss them here, which is
> fine. Those using the K3 as the IF for transverters up to the microwave
> ranges are very concerned about frequency stability, and often discuss
> it on this list too. Your K3 will be rock-solid for you on HF, no need
> for apprehension over that either.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
> - www.cqp.org
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Phil Hystad-3

Re: Side Effects of QRQ On The K3

Dave,

Let me add my two-bits too --- I am about 98 percent CW but NOT QRQ.
I am 18 to 25 wpm depending but during contests I will play around with
others at 30 wpm or more. I have never had any problems with clicks
or anything else. I am often in a QSO with a friend or two who would not
be shy about telling me if my CW keying was clicky, chirpy, or whatever.

73, phil, K7PEH

On Apr 12, 2014, at 4:49 PM, David Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thank you!!! I was starting to get worried that the K3 could not
> generate CW... :)
> --
> Thanks and 73's,
> For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
> www.nk7z.net
> for MixW support see;
> http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
> for Dopplergram information see:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
> for MM-SSTV see:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info
>
>
> On Sat, 2014-04-12 at 15:35 -0700, Fred Jensen wrote:
>> On 4/12/2014 1:07 PM, David Cole wrote:
>>
>>> Could you expand a bit on the choppy CW thing? I am a new K3 person,
>>> and I just bought my K3. All this talk about choppy CW makes me a bit
>>> apprehensive. If I use a normal Vibroplex iambic paddle, and send well
>>> am I going to have a problem, or is this something about using the KBD
>>> option?
>>
>> Short answer: No and you can stop being apprehensive about it. :-)
>>
>> You will plug in your paddle [and/or external keyer and/or computer],
>> and you will be sending clickless CW with full-QSK. Had the subject not
>> come up [again] on this email list, the odds that you'd ever encounter
>> and notice its effects are vanishingly small unless you are a 60+ WPM
>> full QSK operator. I operate in a lot of CW contests with N1MM driving
>> a WinKeyUSB at between 30 and 35 WPM, KPA500, full QSK, QRQ option off.
>> No one has ever given me a QSD. When I've specifically asked friends
>> [good CW ops] to evaluate my keying, they tell me it's great. My "fist"
>> is another matter of course. :-)
>>
>> It's another example of how you have to filter a list like this one.
>> The variety of K3 owners is vast, and some push the limits in various
>> ways and at those limits, they start seeing things the vast majority of
>> us never do or ever will. They tend to discuss them here, which is
>> fine. Those using the K3 as the IF for transverters up to the microwave
>> ranges are very concerned about frequency stability, and often discuss
>> it on this list too. Your K3 will be rock-solid for you on HF, no need
>> for apprehension over that either.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Fred K6DGW
>> - Northern California Contest Club
>> - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
>> - www.cqp.org
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Toby Pennington

Re: Side Effects of QRQ On The K3

I think a few who have posted on this subject misunderstood what I
said. I said nothing about clicks or chirps at higher speeds without
the QRQ being engaged. What I did say the cw begins to get "choppy".
In other words, the cw being send is not smooth as it could be. And
the faster you send the choppier it gets.

The QRQ feature in the K3 was added for those running at higher speeds
(than 25wpm) who experienced their sent CW that was not really good.
Not really smooth, but choppy. Elecraft was able to duplicate this
problem in their lab, and so came up with the QRQ feature. The QRQ
feature works very well at smoothing out the cw even at very high
speeds, but at the expense of losing several features.

Lets get back on track. I was asking has progress be made in making QRQ
work without losing RIT, SHift, Hi Cut and Lo Cut functions? This is a
simple question which can be answered with a yes or no!

Toby K4NH

On 4/12/2014 8:45 PM, Phil Hystad wrote:

> Dave,
>
> Let me add my two-bits too --- I am about 98 percent CW but NOT QRQ.
> I am 18 to 25 wpm depending but during contests I will play around with
> others at 30 wpm or more. I have never had any problems with clicks
> or anything else. I am often in a QSO with a friend or two who would not
> be shy about telling me if my CW keying was clicky, chirpy, or whatever.
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
>
> On Apr 12, 2014, at 4:49 PM, David Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Thank you!!! I was starting to get worried that the K3 could not
>> generate CW... :)
>> --
>> Thanks and 73's,
>> For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
>> www.nk7z.net
>> for MixW support see;
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
>> for Dopplergram information see:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
>> for MM-SSTV see:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 2014-04-12 at 15:35 -0700, Fred Jensen wrote:
>>> On 4/12/2014 1:07 PM, David Cole wrote:
>>>
>>>> Could you expand a bit on the choppy CW thing? I am a new K3 person,
>>>> and I just bought my K3. All this talk about choppy CW makes me a bit
>>>> apprehensive. If I use a normal Vibroplex iambic paddle, and send well
>>>> am I going to have a problem, or is this something about using the KBD
>>>> option?
>>> Short answer: No and you can stop being apprehensive about it. :-)
>>>
>>> You will plug in your paddle [and/or external keyer and/or computer],
>>> and you will be sending clickless CW with full-QSK. Had the subject not
>>> come up [again] on this email list, the odds that you'd ever encounter
>>> and notice its effects are vanishingly small unless you are a 60+ WPM
>>> full QSK operator. I operate in a lot of CW contests with N1MM driving
>>> a WinKeyUSB at between 30 and 35 WPM, KPA500, full QSK, QRQ option off.
>>> No one has ever given me a QSD. When I've specifically asked friends
>>> [good CW ops] to evaluate my keying, they tell me it's great. My "fist"
>>> is another matter of course. :-)
>>>
>>> It's another example of how you have to filter a list like this one.
>>> The variety of K3 owners is vast, and some push the limits in various
>>> ways and at those limits, they start seeing things the vast majority of
>>> us never do or ever will. They tend to discuss them here, which is
>>> fine. Those using the K3 as the IF for transverters up to the microwave
>>> ranges are very concerned about frequency stability, and often discuss
>>> it on this list too. Your K3 will be rock-solid for you on HF, no need
>>> for apprehension over that either.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> Fred K6DGW
>>> - Northern California Contest Club
>>> - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
>>> - www.cqp.org
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Vic Rosenthal

Re: Side Effects of QRQ On The K3

In reply to this post by alsopb

I don't agree. With ORQ off, once you exceed about 35 wpm it is not OK
with TX DELAY at 8 ms either. I'm not a perfectionist, it sounds awful.

Brian is correct that it doesn't matter whether you are using the
internal keyer or an external paddle or keyboard, as long as you are
using either semi- or full QSK.

Fred, I'm willing to bet that you have your WinKey USB set up to control
the PTT -- or maybe you have a foot switch. You are not using either
semi-QSK or full QSK. That is why you don't have the problem.

Try this: make sure you are using either full or semi-QSK. Turn on QRQ
mode and send some V's at about 40 wpm. It should sound fine. Then hit
RIT and send a few more. You'll see.

On 4/12/2014 3:56 PM, Brian Alsop wrote:

> Not quite so. Increase your TX DLY to 25 ms and listen to your CW.
> At 8ms (default), it behaves as you say. Significantly higher values
> cause QSD. It doesn't matter if you're using the internal keyer or an
> external keyer.
>
> 73 DE Brian/K3KO
>
> On 4/12/2014 22:35, Fred Jensen wrote:
>> On 4/12/2014 1:07 PM, David Cole wrote:
>>
>>> Could you expand a bit on the choppy CW thing? I am a new K3 person,
>>> and I just bought my K3. All this talk about choppy CW makes me a bit
>>> apprehensive. If I use a normal Vibroplex iambic paddle, and send well
>>> am I going to have a problem, or is this something about using the KBD
>>> option?
>>
>> Short answer: No and you can stop being apprehensive about it. :-)
>>
>> You will plug in your paddle [and/or external keyer and/or computer],
>> and you will be sending clickless CW with full-QSK. Had the subject not
>> come up [again] on this email list, the odds that you'd ever encounter
>> and notice its effects are vanishingly small unless you are a 60+ WPM
>> full QSK operator. I operate in a lot of CW contests with N1MM driving
>> a WinKeyUSB at between 30 and 35 WPM, KPA500, full QSK, QRQ option off.
>> No one has ever given me a QSD. When I've specifically asked friends
>> [good CW ops] to evaluate my keying, they tell me it's great. My "fist"
>> is another matter of course. :-)
>>
>> It's another example of how you have to filter a list like this one. The
>> variety of K3 owners is vast, and some push the limits in various ways
>> and at those limits, they start seeing things the vast majority of us
>> never do or ever will. They tend to discuss them here, which is fine.
>> Those using the K3 as the IF for transverters up to the microwave ranges
>> are very concerned about frequency stability, and often discuss it on
>> this list too. Your K3 will be rock-solid for you on HF, no need for
>> apprehension over that either.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Fred K6DGW
>> - Northern California Contest Club
>> - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
>> - www.cqp.org

--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

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NK7Z

Re: Side Effects of QRQ On The K3

In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3

Thanks Phil... New owner jitters is all... My radio is on Sacramento
now...
--
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
for Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
for MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info

On Sat, 2014-04-12 at 17:45 -0700, Phil Hystad wrote:

> Dave,
>
> Let me add my two-bits too --- I am about 98 percent CW but NOT QRQ.
> I am 18 to 25 wpm depending but during contests I will play around with
> others at 30 wpm or more. I have never had any problems with clicks
> or anything else. I am often in a QSO with a friend or two who would not
> be shy about telling me if my CW keying was clicky, chirpy, or whatever.
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
>
> On Apr 12, 2014, at 4:49 PM, David Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Thank you!!! I was starting to get worried that the K3 could not
> > generate CW... :)
> > --
> > Thanks and 73's,
> > For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
> > www.nk7z.net
> > for MixW support see;
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
> > for Dopplergram information see:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
> > for MM-SSTV see:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 2014-04-12 at 15:35 -0700, Fred Jensen wrote:
> >> On 4/12/2014 1:07 PM, David Cole wrote:
> >>
> >>> Could you expand a bit on the choppy CW thing? I am a new K3 person,
> >>> and I just bought my K3. All this talk about choppy CW makes me a bit
> >>> apprehensive. If I use a normal Vibroplex iambic paddle, and send well
> >>> am I going to have a problem, or is this something about using the KBD
> >>> option?
> >>
> >> Short answer: No and you can stop being apprehensive about it. :-)
> >>
> >> You will plug in your paddle [and/or external keyer and/or computer],
> >> and you will be sending clickless CW with full-QSK. Had the subject not
> >> come up [again] on this email list, the odds that you'd ever encounter
> >> and notice its effects are vanishingly small unless you are a 60+ WPM
> >> full QSK operator. I operate in a lot of CW contests with N1MM driving
> >> a WinKeyUSB at between 30 and 35 WPM, KPA500, full QSK, QRQ option off.
> >> No one has ever given me a QSD. When I've specifically asked friends
> >> [good CW ops] to evaluate my keying, they tell me it's great. My "fist"
> >> is another matter of course. :-)
> >>
> >> It's another example of how you have to filter a list like this one.
> >> The variety of K3 owners is vast, and some push the limits in various
> >> ways and at those limits, they start seeing things the vast majority of
> >> us never do or ever will. They tend to discuss them here, which is
> >> fine. Those using the K3 as the IF for transverters up to the microwave
> >> ranges are very concerned about frequency stability, and often discuss
> >> it on this list too. Your K3 will be rock-solid for you on HF, no need
> >> for apprehension over that either.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >>
> >> Fred K6DGW
> >> - Northern California Contest Club
> >> - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
> >> - www.cqp.org
> >>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

k6dgw

Re: Side Effects of QRQ On The K3

In reply to this post by Toby Pennington

I would normally top-post but hard in this case ...

On 4/12/2014 7:48 PM, Vic Rosenthal K2VCO wrote:
> I don't agree. With ORQ off, once you exceed about 35 wpm it is not OK
> with TX DELAY at 8 ms either. I'm not a perfectionist, it sounds awful.

Not sure what you don't agree with. I said I almost never send above
35, and that's N1MM. I rarely paddle above 25, hand dexterity issues
caused by a poor choice of Dad. [for those who don't get that, I loved
my Dad, he was really good to me, he was Danish, and it's genetic.
Geesh, you never know these days!]

> Brian is correct that it doesn't matter whether you are using the
> internal keyer or an external paddle or keyboard, as long as you are
> using either semi- or full QSK.

If I didn't say that, I'm sorry, I know that. I run full QSK all the
time, with KPA500, N1MM-Winkey or my paddles. And yes, Brian is correct
[well, I think, I haven't actually tried it, and I'm not at all sure I
know what TX DLY is], but that's not the list item I was responding to.
Somehow, being "correct," even if it doesn't respond the the original
question has become the current badge. Probably not a good trend.
>
> Fred, I'm willing to bet that you have your WinKey USB set up to control
> the PTT -- or maybe you have a foot switch. You are not using either
> semi-QSK or full QSK. That is why you don't have the problem.

How much are you willing to bet? :-))
>
> Try this: make sure you are using either full or semi-QSK. Turn on QRQ
> mode and send some V's at about 40 wpm. It should sound fine. Then hit
> RIT and send a few more. You'll see.

Vic, I can't send V's at 40 WPM with my paddle any more, too many
accumulated birthdays, could when younger.

So FOTL ["Folks Of The List"] ... how about we get back to basics. I
was responding to David Cole, who has been moderately active on this
list recently trying to figure out how to buy a K3 and what he wants
with it. I don't know David, but his questions all smacked of
sincerity. I think David is more concerned than he needs to be about
the K3 he's ordered, probably 99% of us know he's going to love it. He
gets concerned about some of the peripheral threads on this list, all
welcome, but we're a diverse group and not everything that someone is
concerned about is our concern.

Learning how to sort that out takes time and experience, and if we're
lucky, some advice. David wants a K3, he's done his research, but he's
still sensitive to peripheral posts on the list that suggest he may have
made a wrong decision. How about we all have a little compassion for
David and all the others like him. This is a hard list to follow,
especially if you might not be hugely technically knowledgeable.

David, you will really enjoy your K3. Just use it out of the box for
awhile and get to know it. You'll be able to figure out the rest, and
you'll always have help here.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
- www.cqp.org

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Vic Rosenthal

Re: Side Effects of QRQ On The K3

Fred,

I am sorry if you took my remarks personally. I didn't intend to be
'correct' at anyone's expense. But this is a real issue.

You said "the odds that you'd ever encounter and notice its effects are
vanishingly small unless you are a 60+ WPM full QSK operator." That is
simply not the case: the problem starts showing up around 35 wpm, in
either full or semi-QSK.

The only ways to mitigate it are to use QRQ mode or to use manual PTT
rather than any form of QSK.

If the fellow who started the thread never operates CW over 30 wpm, or
if he gets used to the limitations of QRQ mode (as I have) or if he uses
a foot switch, then, yes, he will not notice the problem.

On 4/12/2014 8:39 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

>
> I would normally top-post but hard in this case ...
>
> On 4/12/2014 7:48 PM, Vic Rosenthal K2VCO wrote:
> > I don't agree. With ORQ off, once you exceed about 35 wpm it is not OK
> > with TX DELAY at 8 ms either. I'm not a perfectionist, it sounds awful.
>
> Not sure what you don't agree with. I said I almost never send above
> 35, and that's N1MM. I rarely paddle above 25, hand dexterity issues
> caused by a poor choice of Dad. [for those who don't get that, I loved
> my Dad, he was really good to me, he was Danish, and it's genetic.
> Geesh, you never know these days!]
>
> > Brian is correct that it doesn't matter whether you are using the
> > internal keyer or an external paddle or keyboard, as long as you are
> > using either semi- or full QSK.
>
> If I didn't say that, I'm sorry, I know that. I run full QSK all the
> time, with KPA500, N1MM-Winkey or my paddles. And yes, Brian is correct
> [well, I think, I haven't actually tried it, and I'm not at all sure I
> know what TX DLY is], but that's not the list item I was responding to.
> Somehow, being "correct," even if it doesn't respond the the original
> question has become the current badge. Probably not a good trend.
> >
> > Fred, I'm willing to bet that you have your WinKey USB set up to control
> > the PTT -- or maybe you have a foot switch. You are not using either
> > semi-QSK or full QSK. That is why you don't have the problem.
>
> How much are you willing to bet? :-))
> >
> > Try this: make sure you are using either full or semi-QSK. Turn on QRQ
> > mode and send some V's at about 40 wpm. It should sound fine. Then hit
> > RIT and send a few more. You'll see.
>
> Vic, I can't send V's at 40 WPM with my paddle any more, too many
> accumulated birthdays, could when younger.
>
> So FOTL ["Folks Of The List"] ... how about we get back to basics. I
> was responding to David Cole, who has been moderately active on this
> list recently trying to figure out how to buy a K3 and what he wants
> with it. I don't know David, but his questions all smacked of
> sincerity. I think David is more concerned than he needs to be about
> the K3 he's ordered, probably 99% of us know he's going to love it. He
> gets concerned about some of the peripheral threads on this list, all
> welcome, but we're a diverse group and not everything that someone is
> concerned about is our concern.
>
> Learning how to sort that out takes time and experience, and if we're
> lucky, some advice. David wants a K3, he's done his research, but he's
> still sensitive to peripheral posts on the list that suggest he may have
> made a wrong decision. How about we all have a little compassion for
> David and all the others like him. This is a hard list to follow,
> especially if you might not be hugely technically knowledgeable.
>
> David, you will really enjoy your K3. Just use it out of the box for
> awhile and get to know it. You'll be able to figure out the rest, and
> you'll always have help here.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
> - www.cqp.org

Toby Pennington

Re: Side Effects of QRQ On The K3

Fred, I was the one who first started this thread. I think perhaps it
may be not affecting that many people, as there was not much support on
here about the QRQ deficiencies. I have been running QRQ at around 30
wpm, because IF I don't, I will notice some choppiness in the sent CW.
If you operate the rig at speeds greater than 30wpm, then you will
notice the choppiness in the cw that is being sent. ( without the QRQ
turned on..) When QRQ is ENGAGED, you lose the use of the RIT, Shift,
Hi cut and Lo Cut.

It appears as though nothing has been done to improve on this situation
by Elecraft, as they would would have chimed in with a comment about
the QRQ issue. I believe it is their intention to leave the feature as
it is and not address anything more concerning it.

So, this will be my last post about an issue which I think needs to be
worked on further.

I wish all a Blessed Easter and Passover this coming week! Toby K4NH

On 4/13/2014 2:46 AM, Vic Rosenthal K2VCO wrote:

> Fred,
>
> I am sorry if you took my remarks personally. I didn't intend to be
> 'correct' at anyone's expense. But this is a real issue.
>
> You said "the odds that you'd ever encounter and notice its effects
> are vanishingly small unless you are a 60+ WPM full QSK operator."
> That is simply not the case: the problem starts showing up around 35
> wpm, in either full or semi-QSK.
>
> The only ways to mitigate it are to use QRQ mode or to use manual PTT
> rather than any form of QSK.
>
> If the fellow who started the thread never operates CW over 30 wpm, or
> if he gets used to the limitations of QRQ mode (as I have) or if he
> uses a foot switch, then, yes, he will not notice the problem.
>
>
> On 4/12/2014 8:39 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>>
>> I would normally top-post but hard in this case ...
>>
>> On 4/12/2014 7:48 PM, Vic Rosenthal K2VCO wrote:
>> > I don't agree. With ORQ off, once you exceed about 35 wpm it is
>> not OK
>> > with TX DELAY at 8 ms either. I'm not a perfectionist, it sounds
>> awful.
>>
>> Not sure what you don't agree with. I said I almost never send above
>> 35, and that's N1MM. I rarely paddle above 25, hand dexterity issues
>> caused by a poor choice of Dad. [for those who don't get that, I loved
>> my Dad, he was really good to me, he was Danish, and it's genetic.
>> Geesh, you never know these days!]
>>
>> > Brian is correct that it doesn't matter whether you are using the
>> > internal keyer or an external paddle or keyboard, as long as you are
>> > using either semi- or full QSK.
>>
>> If I didn't say that, I'm sorry, I know that. I run full QSK all the
>> time, with KPA500, N1MM-Winkey or my paddles. And yes, Brian is correct
>> [well, I think, I haven't actually tried it, and I'm not at all sure I
>> know what TX DLY is], but that's not the list item I was responding to.
>> Somehow, being "correct," even if it doesn't respond the the original
>> question has become the current badge. Probably not a good trend.
>> >
>> > Fred, I'm willing to bet that you have your WinKey USB set up to
>> control
>> > the PTT -- or maybe you have a foot switch. You are not using either
>> > semi-QSK or full QSK. That is why you don't have the problem.
>>
>> How much are you willing to bet? :-))
>> >
>> > Try this: make sure you are using either full or semi-QSK. Turn on
>> QRQ
>> > mode and send some V's at about 40 wpm. It should sound fine. Then
>> hit
>> > RIT and send a few more. You'll see.
>>
>> Vic, I can't send V's at 40 WPM with my paddle any more, too many
>> accumulated birthdays, could when younger.
>>
>> So FOTL ["Folks Of The List"] ... how about we get back to basics. I
>> was responding to David Cole, who has been moderately active on this
>> list recently trying to figure out how to buy a K3 and what he wants
>> with it. I don't know David, but his questions all smacked of
>> sincerity. I think David is more concerned than he needs to be about
>> the K3 he's ordered, probably 99% of us know he's going to love it. He
>> gets concerned about some of the peripheral threads on this list, all
>> welcome, but we're a diverse group and not everything that someone is
>> concerned about is our concern.
>>
>> Learning how to sort that out takes time and experience, and if we're
>> lucky, some advice. David wants a K3, he's done his research, but he's
>> still sensitive to peripheral posts on the list that suggest he may have
>> made a wrong decision. How about we all have a little compassion for
>> David and all the others like him. This is a hard list to follow,
>> especially if you might not be hugely technically knowledgeable.
>>
>> David, you will really enjoy your K3. Just use it out of the box for
>> awhile and get to know it. You'll be able to figure out the rest, and
>> you'll always have help here.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Fred K6DGW
>> - Northern California Contest Club
>> - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
>> - www.cqp.org
>

Phil Hystad-3

Re: Side Effects of QRQ On The K3

Which brings another question --- just when should the QRQ be enabled. I have sent at 30 wpm and that is about the limit of my sending speed and all mistakes are my fault -- but I have never noticed anything choppy or unusual and I have never invoked QRQ. Reason for not invoking QRQ is that I didn't think I needed it and I thought QRQ was meant for something faster than 30 wpm.

Question: is this something you hear on the side-tone monitor? Is it the same as sent?

73, phil, K7PEH

On Apr 13, 2014, at 7:03 AM, Toby Pennington <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Fred, I was the one who first started this thread. I think perhaps it may be not affecting that many people, as there was not much support on here about the QRQ deficiencies. I have been running QRQ at around 30 wpm, because IF I don't, I will notice some choppiness in the sent CW. If you operate the rig at speeds greater than 30wpm, then you will notice the choppiness in the cw that is being sent. ( without the QRQ turned on..) When QRQ is ENGAGED, you lose the use of the RIT, Shift, Hi cut and Lo Cut.
>
> It appears as though nothing has been done to improve on this situation by Elecraft, as they would would have chimed in with a comment about the QRQ issue. I believe it is their intention to leave the feature as it is and not address anything more concerning it.
>
> So, this will be my last post about an issue which I think needs to be worked on further.
>
> I wish all a Blessed Easter and Passover this coming week! Toby K4NH
>
>
> On 4/13/2014 2:46 AM, Vic Rosenthal K2VCO wrote:
>> Fred,
>>
>> I am sorry if you took my remarks personally. I didn't intend to be 'correct' at anyone's expense. But this is a real issue.
>>
>> You said "the odds that you'd ever encounter and notice its effects are vanishingly small unless you are a 60+ WPM full QSK operator." That is simply not the case: the problem starts showing up around 35 wpm, in either full or semi-QSK.
>>
>> The only ways to mitigate it are to use QRQ mode or to use manual PTT rather than any form of QSK.
>>
>> If the fellow who started the thread never operates CW over 30 wpm, or if he gets used to the limitations of QRQ mode (as I have) or if he uses a foot switch, then, yes, he will not notice the problem.
>>
>>
>> On 4/12/2014 8:39 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>>>
>>> I would normally top-post but hard in this case ...
>>>
>>> On 4/12/2014 7:48 PM, Vic Rosenthal K2VCO wrote:
>>> > I don't agree. With ORQ off, once you exceed about 35 wpm it is not OK
>>> > with TX DELAY at 8 ms either. I'm not a perfectionist, it sounds awful.
>>>
>>> Not sure what you don't agree with. I said I almost never send above
>>> 35, and that's N1MM. I rarely paddle above 25, hand dexterity issues
>>> caused by a poor choice of Dad. [for those who don't get that, I loved
>>> my Dad, he was really good to me, he was Danish, and it's genetic.
>>> Geesh, you never know these days!]
>>>
>>> > Brian is correct that it doesn't matter whether you are using the
>>> > internal keyer or an external paddle or keyboard, as long as you are
>>> > using either semi- or full QSK.
>>>
>>> If I didn't say that, I'm sorry, I know that. I run full QSK all the
>>> time, with KPA500, N1MM-Winkey or my paddles. And yes, Brian is correct
>>> [well, I think, I haven't actually tried it, and I'm not at all sure I
>>> know what TX DLY is], but that's not the list item I was responding to.
>>> Somehow, being "correct," even if it doesn't respond the the original
>>> question has become the current badge. Probably not a good trend.
>>> >
>>> > Fred, I'm willing to bet that you have your WinKey USB set up to control
>>> > the PTT -- or maybe you have a foot switch. You are not using either
>>> > semi-QSK or full QSK. That is why you don't have the problem.
>>>
>>> How much are you willing to bet? :-))
>>> >
>>> > Try this: make sure you are using either full or semi-QSK. Turn on QRQ
>>> > mode and send some V's at about 40 wpm. It should sound fine. Then hit
>>> > RIT and send a few more. You'll see.
>>>
>>> Vic, I can't send V's at 40 WPM with my paddle any more, too many
>>> accumulated birthdays, could when younger.
>>>
>>> So FOTL ["Folks Of The List"] ... how about we get back to basics. I
>>> was responding to David Cole, who has been moderately active on this
>>> list recently trying to figure out how to buy a K3 and what he wants
>>> with it. I don't know David, but his questions all smacked of
>>> sincerity. I think David is more concerned than he needs to be about
>>> the K3 he's ordered, probably 99% of us know he's going to love it. He
>>> gets concerned about some of the peripheral threads on this list, all
>>> welcome, but we're a diverse group and not everything that someone is
>>> concerned about is our concern.
>>>
>>> Learning how to sort that out takes time and experience, and if we're
>>> lucky, some advice. David wants a K3, he's done his research, but he's
>>> still sensitive to peripheral posts on the list that suggest he may have
>>> made a wrong decision. How about we all have a little compassion for
>>> David and all the others like him. This is a hard list to follow,
>>> especially if you might not be hugely technically knowledgeable.
>>>
>>> David, you will really enjoy your K3. Just use it out of the box for
>>> awhile and get to know it. You'll be able to figure out the rest, and
>>> you'll always have help here.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> Fred K6DGW
>>> - Northern California Contest Club
>>> - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
>>> - www.cqp.org
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Stephen G4SJP

Re: Side Effects of QRQ On The K3

I just tried sending a string of V's at 30 wpm. Normally my maximum
comfortable sending level is between 20 and 25wpm, so this is certainly out
of my comfort zone. I am using a Begali Expedition and iambic mode B.
With QRQ off I was about 75% accurate in my sending of strings of V's,
with QRQ on, it was nearer 90%. I'm just listening to the sidetone. That
was with the delay set to zero.

With the delay at 0.06 I cannot see any difference between accuracy of
sending with QRQ on or off, again at the 30wpm level.

I must concur with previous comments that I have found the K3 to be a
wonderful rig to use on CW, but I'm no racer, and never will be!

73 Stephen G4SJP

K3 #980

On 13 April 2014 15:34, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Which brings another question --- just when should the QRQ be enabled. I
> have sent at 30 wpm and that is about the limit of my sending speed and all
> mistakes are my fault -- but I have never noticed anything choppy or
> unusual and I have never invoked QRQ. Reason for not invoking QRQ is that
> I didn't think I needed it and I thought QRQ was meant for something faster
> than 30 wpm.
>
> Question: is this something you hear on the side-tone monitor? Is it the
> same as sent?
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
>
> On Apr 13, 2014, at 7:03 AM, Toby Pennington <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Fred, I was the one who first started this thread. I think perhaps it
> may be not affecting that many people, as there was not much support on
> here about the QRQ deficiencies. I have been running QRQ at around 30 wpm,
> because IF I don't, I will notice some choppiness in the sent CW. If
> you operate the rig at speeds greater than 30wpm, then you will notice the
> choppiness in the cw that is being sent. ( without the QRQ turned on..)
> When QRQ is ENGAGED, you lose the use of the RIT, Shift, Hi cut and Lo
> Cut.
> >
> > It appears as though nothing has been done to improve on this situation
> by Elecraft, as they would would have chimed in with a comment about the
> QRQ issue. I believe it is their intention to leave the feature as it is
> and not address anything more concerning it.
> >
> > So, this will be my last post about an issue which I think needs to be
> worked on further.
> >
> > I wish all a Blessed Easter and Passover this coming week! Toby K4NH
> >
> >
> > On 4/13/2014 2:46 AM, Vic Rosenthal K2VCO wrote:
> >> Fred,
> >>
> >> I am sorry if you took my remarks personally. I didn't intend to be
> 'correct' at anyone's expense. But this is a real issue.
> >>
> >> You said "the odds that you'd ever encounter and notice its effects are
> vanishingly small unless you are a 60+ WPM full QSK operator." That is
> simply not the case: the problem starts showing up around 35 wpm, in either
> full or semi-QSK.
> >>
> >> The only ways to mitigate it are to use QRQ mode or to use manual PTT
> rather than any form of QSK.
> >>
> >> If the fellow who started the thread never operates CW over 30 wpm, or
> if he gets used to the limitations of QRQ mode (as I have) or if he uses a
> foot switch, then, yes, he will not notice the problem.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 4/12/2014 8:39 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I would normally top-post but hard in this case ...
> >>>
> >>> On 4/12/2014 7:48 PM, Vic Rosenthal K2VCO wrote:
> >>> > I don't agree. With ORQ off, once you exceed about 35 wpm it is not
> OK
> >>> > with TX DELAY at 8 ms either. I'm not a perfectionist, it sounds
> awful.
> >>>
> >>> Not sure what you don't agree with. I said I almost never send above
> >>> 35, and that's N1MM. I rarely paddle above 25, hand dexterity issues
> >>> caused by a poor choice of Dad. [for those who don't get that, I loved
> >>> my Dad, he was really good to me, he was Danish, and it's genetic.
> >>> Geesh, you never know these days!]
> >>>
> >>> > Brian is correct that it doesn't matter whether you are using the
> >>> > internal keyer or an external paddle or keyboard, as long as you are
> >>> > using either semi- or full QSK.
> >>>
> >>> If I didn't say that, I'm sorry, I know that. I run full QSK all the
> >>> time, with KPA500, N1MM-Winkey or my paddles. And yes, Brian is
> correct
> >>> [well, I think, I haven't actually tried it, and I'm not at all sure I
> >>> know what TX DLY is], but that's not the list item I was responding to.
> >>> Somehow, being "correct," even if it doesn't respond the the original
> >>> question has become the current badge. Probably not a good trend.
> >>> >
> >>> > Fred, I'm willing to bet that you have your WinKey USB set up to
> control
> >>> > the PTT -- or maybe you have a foot switch. You are not using either
> >>> > semi-QSK or full QSK. That is why you don't have the problem.
> >>>
> >>> How much are you willing to bet? :-))
> >>> >
> >>> > Try this: make sure you are using either full or semi-QSK. Turn on
> QRQ
> >>> > mode and send some V's at about 40 wpm. It should sound fine. Then
> hit
> >>> > RIT and send a few more. You'll see.
> >>>
> >>> Vic, I can't send V's at 40 WPM with my paddle any more, too many
> >>> accumulated birthdays, could when younger.
> >>>
> >>> So FOTL ["Folks Of The List"] ... how about we get back to basics. I
> >>> was responding to David Cole, who has been moderately active on this
> >>> list recently trying to figure out how to buy a K3 and what he wants
> >>> with it. I don't know David, but his questions all smacked of
> >>> sincerity. I think David is more concerned than he needs to be about
> >>> the K3 he's ordered, probably 99% of us know he's going to love it. He
> >>> gets concerned about some of the peripheral threads on this list, all
> >>> welcome, but we're a diverse group and not everything that someone is
> >>> concerned about is our concern.
> >>>
> >>> Learning how to sort that out takes time and experience, and if we're
> >>> lucky, some advice. David wants a K3, he's done his research, but he's
> >>> still sensitive to peripheral posts on the list that suggest he may
> have
> >>> made a wrong decision. How about we all have a little compassion for
> >>> David and all the others like him. This is a hard list to follow,
> >>> especially if you might not be hugely technically knowledgeable.
> >>>
> >>> David, you will really enjoy your K3. Just use it out of the box for
> >>> awhile and get to know it. You'll be able to figure out the rest, and
> >>> you'll always have help here.
> >>>
> >>> 73,
> >>>
> >>> Fred K6DGW
> >>> - Northern California Contest Club
> >>> - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
> >>> - www.cqp.org
> >>
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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>

Phil Hystad-3

Re: Side Effects of QRQ On The K3

Hopefully I will find some time to do more experiments this afternoon (maybe not, it will be a sunny day) but sending at 30 wpm is always error prone for me and it takes more effort that is not that comfortable. I too am best in the 20 to 25 zone. I think my error rate goes up substantially above about 28 wpm and also when the speed is dropped below about 16 wpm. Going slower also throws my timing way off.

I use a Begali Magnetic Classic paddle and I love it. I have a Bencher for the pickup truck mobile and portable ops with KX3.

73, phil, K7PEH

On Apr 13, 2014, at 7:53 AM, Stephen Prior <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I just tried sending a string of V's at 30 wpm. Normally my maximum
> comfortable sending level is between 20 and 25wpm, so this is certainly out
> of my comfort zone. I am using a Begali Expedition and iambic mode B.
> With QRQ off I was about 75% accurate in my sending of strings of V's,
> with QRQ on, it was nearer 90%. I'm just listening to the sidetone. That
> was with the delay set to zero.
>
> With the delay at 0.06 I cannot see any difference between accuracy of
> sending with QRQ on or off, again at the 30wpm level.
>
> I must concur with previous comments that I have found the K3 to be a
> wonderful rig to use on CW, but I'm no racer, and never will be!
>
> 73 Stephen G4SJP
>
> K3 #980
>
>
>
>
> On 13 April 2014 15:34, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Which brings another question --- just when should the QRQ be enabled. I
>> have sent at 30 wpm and that is about the limit of my sending speed and all
>> mistakes are my fault -- but I have never noticed anything choppy or
>> unusual and I have never invoked QRQ. Reason for not invoking QRQ is that
>> I didn't think I needed it and I thought QRQ was meant for something faster
>> than 30 wpm.
>>
>> Question: is this something you hear on the side-tone monitor? Is it the
>> same as sent?
>>
>> 73, phil, K7PEH
>>
>>
>> On Apr 13, 2014, at 7:03 AM, Toby Pennington <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Fred, I was the one who first started this thread. I think perhaps it
>> may be not affecting that many people, as there was not much support on
>> here about the QRQ deficiencies. I have been running QRQ at around 30 wpm,
>> because IF I don't, I will notice some choppiness in the sent CW. If
>> you operate the rig at speeds greater than 30wpm, then you will notice the
>> choppiness in the cw that is being sent. ( without the QRQ turned on..)
>> When QRQ is ENGAGED, you lose the use of the RIT, Shift, Hi cut and Lo
>> Cut.
>>>
>>> It appears as though nothing has been done to improve on this situation
>> by Elecraft, as they would would have chimed in with a comment about the
>> QRQ issue. I believe it is their intention to leave the feature as it is
>> and not address anything more concerning it.
>>>
>>> So, this will be my last post about an issue which I think needs to be
>> worked on further.
>>>
>>> I wish all a Blessed Easter and Passover this coming week! Toby K4NH
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/13/2014 2:46 AM, Vic Rosenthal K2VCO wrote:
>>>> Fred,
>>>>
>>>> I am sorry if you took my remarks personally. I didn't intend to be
>> 'correct' at anyone's expense. But this is a real issue.
>>>>
>>>> You said "the odds that you'd ever encounter and notice its effects are
>> vanishingly small unless you are a 60+ WPM full QSK operator." That is
>> simply not the case: the problem starts showing up around 35 wpm, in either
>> full or semi-QSK.
>>>>
>>>> The only ways to mitigate it are to use QRQ mode or to use manual PTT
>> rather than any form of QSK.
>>>>
>>>> If the fellow who started the thread never operates CW over 30 wpm, or
>> if he gets used to the limitations of QRQ mode (as I have) or if he uses a
>> foot switch, then, yes, he will not notice the problem.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 4/12/2014 8:39 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I would normally top-post but hard in this case ...
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/12/2014 7:48 PM, Vic Rosenthal K2VCO wrote:
>>>>>> I don't agree. With ORQ off, once you exceed about 35 wpm it is not
>> OK
>>>>>> with TX DELAY at 8 ms either. I'm not a perfectionist, it sounds
>> awful.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not sure what you don't agree with. I said I almost never send above
>>>>> 35, and that's N1MM. I rarely paddle above 25, hand dexterity issues
>>>>> caused by a poor choice of Dad. [for those who don't get that, I loved
>>>>> my Dad, he was really good to me, he was Danish, and it's genetic.
>>>>> Geesh, you never know these days!]
>>>>>
>>>>>> Brian is correct that it doesn't matter whether you are using the
>>>>>> internal keyer or an external paddle or keyboard, as long as you are
>>>>>> using either semi- or full QSK.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I didn't say that, I'm sorry, I know that. I run full QSK all the
>>>>> time, with KPA500, N1MM-Winkey or my paddles. And yes, Brian is
>> correct
>>>>> [well, I think, I haven't actually tried it, and I'm not at all sure I
>>>>> know what TX DLY is], but that's not the list item I was responding to.
>>>>> Somehow, being "correct," even if it doesn't respond the the original
>>>>> question has become the current badge. Probably not a good trend.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fred, I'm willing to bet that you have your WinKey USB set up to
>> control
>>>>>> the PTT -- or maybe you have a foot switch. You are not using either
>>>>>> semi-QSK or full QSK. That is why you don't have the problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> How much are you willing to bet? :-))
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Try this: make sure you are using either full or semi-QSK. Turn on
>> QRQ
>>>>>> mode and send some V's at about 40 wpm. It should sound fine. Then
>> hit
>>>>>> RIT and send a few more. You'll see.
>>>>>
>>>>> Vic, I can't send V's at 40 WPM with my paddle any more, too many
>>>>> accumulated birthdays, could when younger.
>>>>>
>>>>> So FOTL ["Folks Of The List"] ... how about we get back to basics. I
>>>>> was responding to David Cole, who has been moderately active on this
>>>>> list recently trying to figure out how to buy a K3 and what he wants
>>>>> with it. I don't know David, but his questions all smacked of
>>>>> sincerity. I think David is more concerned than he needs to be about
>>>>> the K3 he's ordered, probably 99% of us know he's going to love it. He
>>>>> gets concerned about some of the peripheral threads on this list, all
>>>>> welcome, but we're a diverse group and not everything that someone is
>>>>> concerned about is our concern.
>>>>>
>>>>> Learning how to sort that out takes time and experience, and if we're
>>>>> lucky, some advice. David wants a K3, he's done his research, but he's
>>>>> still sensitive to peripheral posts on the list that suggest he may
>> have
>>>>> made a wrong decision. How about we all have a little compassion for
>>>>> David and all the others like him. This is a hard list to follow,
>>>>> especially if you might not be hugely technically knowledgeable.
>>>>>
>>>>> David, you will really enjoy your K3. Just use it out of the box for
>>>>> awhile and get to know it. You'll be able to figure out the rest, and
>>>>> you'll always have help here.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73,
>>>>>
>>>>> Fred K6DGW
>>>>> - Northern California Contest Club
>>>>> - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
>>>>> - www.cqp.org
>>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

W5UXH

Re: Side Effects of QRQ On The K3

I will preface this with the comment that I did not order my K3 until Wayne did the "QRQ mode" firmware work because I operate a lot of QRQ (the definition of this varies of course, for me it is 60+ WPM full QSK).

I believe the speed at which someone starts to hear the inconsistency in the K3 Keying in non-QRQ mode is a function of the individual, and also whether one is listening in a speaker or headphones.

For me, I just barely start to notice it at 40 wpm with headphones. At 45 wpm it is intolerable. At 60 wpm it is unintelligible. For those who notice it at 30 wpm, my hat is off to your ears capability to detect timing variations

I know a few years ago when testing with others, some thought it was fine at 45 wpm.

I have no use for RIT or SPLIT, so I am one of the minority who is quite happy to stay in QRQ mode 100% of the time. The only time I press RIT is to demonstrate the QRQ keying to others in non-QRQ mode. I would like to have passband SHIFT available, but my guess is that Wayne would find it very difficult to remove the limitations in QRQ mode, and the target market for speeds above 40 wpm is extremely tiny. I had not been aware that anyone could notice a difference at 30 wpm. I have what I think are pretty picky ears so that is interesting to learn.

Chuck, W5UXH

Vic Rosenthal

Re: Side Effects of QRQ On The K3

In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3

Yes, it is heard on the sidetone. You may or may not detect it at 30
wpm, but you definitely will at 35. The sidetone is a close
representation of the signal as sent.

At slower speeds, QRQ mode also makes full QSK sound 'cleaner', but I
don't think that there is any detectable effect on the transmitted
signal under 30 wpm.

I leave QRQ turned on. I don't normally use SHIFT, so I don't miss it.
When I turn on RIT/XIT, QRQ goes off and I avoid it when sending at
higher speeds. When I need to operate split. I do this by listening to
the DX on the subreceiver, tuning the pileup with the main. That way I
do not have to activate SPLIT, which also turns off QRQ.

This is a small defect, but it is real. It is not going to make me give
up my K3! When anyone asks for my recommendation for a high-performance
transceiver, I recommend the K3. That doesn't mean it is perfect.

I have discussed this issue with Wayne and understand that the solution
is not simple, and probably not fixable without a hardware mod. I for
one would be interested in buying new synth boards if they would solve
this problem as well as improve the QSK performance (it's too noisy).

On 4/13/2014 7:34 AM, Phil Hystad wrote:

> Which brings another question --- just when should the QRQ be
> enabled. I have sent at 30 wpm and that is about the limit of my
> sending speed and all mistakes are my fault -- but I have never
> noticed anything choppy or unusual and I have never invoked QRQ.
> Reason for not invoking QRQ is that I didn't think I needed it and I
> thought QRQ was meant for something faster than 30 wpm.
>
> Question: is this something you hear on the side-tone monitor? Is
> it the same as sent?
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH

Chester Alderman

Re: Side Effects of QRQ On The K3

In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3

To All:

First, please keep in mind that this is our hobby. Being our hobby, you all
know there are many aspects of it that, not all, but some of us enjoy and
there has been a small percentage of us, Toby, myself, and others that have
enjoyed running CW speeds in excess of 50 wpm. It should be quite obvious
that as you get higher in CW speed the need for accuracy in sending code
becomes more important. And obviously very few hams can use a hand key and
send correctly formed and correctly spaced Morse letters at speeds exceeding
about 40 wpm. Thus the vast majority of us use PC programs and keyboards for
talking with each other using CW. When operating at higher speeds in the
non-QRQ mode, the K3 starts sending choppy characters above about 35 wpm. In
the QRQ mode, as Toby stated, the K3 loses some useful functions such as
RIT, XIT, split, etc., however it will produce (on my K3) correctly formed
CW characters up to about 94 wpm.

This subject has been discussed on this reflector for the past 3 years and
the Elecraft response has been 'we are working on it'. However those of us
who would love to have the QRQ capability without the loss of any useful
functions, now pretty much understand that it is not going to happen, thus
Toby's and my conclusion that it is not a worthwhile subject for discussion
any longer.

73,
Tom - W4BQF

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Phil Hystad
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 11:35 AM
To: Stephen Prior
Cc: Elecraft
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Side Effects of QRQ On The K3

Hopefully I will find some time to do more experiments this afternoon (maybe
not, it will be a sunny day) but sending at 30 wpm is always error prone for
me and it takes more effort that is not that comfortable. I too am best in
the 20 to 25 zone. I think my error rate goes up substantially above about
28 wpm and also when the speed is dropped below about 16 wpm. Going slower
also throws my timing way off.

I use a Begali Magnetic Classic paddle and I love it. I have a Bencher for
the pickup truck mobile and portable ops with KX3.

73, phil, K7PEH

On Apr 13, 2014, at 7:53 AM, Stephen Prior <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I just tried sending a string of V's at 30 wpm. Normally my maximum
> comfortable sending level is between 20 and 25wpm, so this is
> certainly out of my comfort zone. I am using a Begali Expedition and
iambic mode B.

> With QRQ off I was about 75% accurate in my sending of strings of V's,
> with QRQ on, it was nearer 90%. I'm just listening to the sidetone.
> That was with the delay set to zero.
>
> With the delay at 0.06 I cannot see any difference between accuracy of
> sending with QRQ on or off, again at the 30wpm level.
>
> I must concur with previous comments that I have found the K3 to be a
> wonderful rig to use on CW, but I'm no racer, and never will be!
>
> 73 Stephen G4SJP
>
> K3 #980
>
>
>
>
> On 13 April 2014 15:34, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Which brings another question --- just when should the QRQ be
>> enabled. I have sent at 30 wpm and that is about the limit of my
>> sending speed and all mistakes are my fault -- but I have never
>> noticed anything choppy or unusual and I have never invoked QRQ.
>> Reason for not invoking QRQ is that I didn't think I needed it and I
>> thought QRQ was meant for something faster than 30 wpm.
>>
>> Question: is this something you hear on the side-tone monitor? Is
>> it the same as sent?
>>
>> 73, phil, K7PEH
>>
>>
>> On Apr 13, 2014, at 7:03 AM, Toby Pennington <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Fred, I was the one who first started this thread. I think perhaps it
>> may be not affecting that many people, as there was not much support
>> on here about the QRQ deficiencies. I have been running QRQ at around 30

wpm,

>> because IF I don't, I will notice some choppiness in the sent CW. If
>> you operate the rig at speeds greater than 30wpm, then you will
>> notice the choppiness in the cw that is being sent. ( without the QRQ
>> turned on..) When QRQ is ENGAGED, you lose the use of the RIT,
>> Shift, Hi cut and Lo Cut.
>>>
>>> It appears as though nothing has been done to improve on this
>>> situation
>> by Elecraft, as they would would have chimed in with a comment about
>> the QRQ issue. I believe it is their intention to leave the feature
>> as it is and not address anything more concerning it.
>>>
>>> So, this will be my last post about an issue which I think needs to
>>> be
>> worked on further.
>>>
>>> I wish all a Blessed Easter and Passover this coming week! Toby

K4NH

>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/13/2014 2:46 AM, Vic Rosenthal K2VCO wrote:
>>>> Fred,
>>>>
>>>> I am sorry if you took my remarks personally. I didn't intend to be
>> 'correct' at anyone's expense. But this is a real issue.
>>>>
>>>> You said "the odds that you'd ever encounter and notice its effects
>>>> are
>> vanishingly small unless you are a 60+ WPM full QSK operator." That
>> is simply not the case: the problem starts showing up around 35 wpm,
>> in either full or semi-QSK.
>>>>
>>>> The only ways to mitigate it are to use QRQ mode or to use manual
>>>> PTT
>> rather than any form of QSK.
>>>>
>>>> If the fellow who started the thread never operates CW over 30 wpm,
>>>> or
>> if he gets used to the limitations of QRQ mode (as I have) or if he
>> uses a foot switch, then, yes, he will not notice the problem.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 4/12/2014 8:39 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I would normally top-post but hard in this case ...
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/12/2014 7:48 PM, Vic Rosenthal K2VCO wrote:
>>>>>> I don't agree. With ORQ off, once you exceed about 35 wpm it is
>>>>>> not
>> OK
>>>>>> with TX DELAY at 8 ms either. I'm not a perfectionist, it sounds
>> awful.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not sure what you don't agree with. I said I almost never send
>>>>> above 35, and that's N1MM. I rarely paddle above 25, hand
>>>>> dexterity issues caused by a poor choice of Dad. [for those who
>>>>> don't get that, I loved my Dad, he was really good to me, he was

Danish, and it's genetic.

>>>>> Geesh, you never know these days!]
>>>>>
>>>>>> Brian is correct that it doesn't matter whether you are using the
>>>>>> internal keyer or an external paddle or keyboard, as long as you
>>>>>> are using either semi- or full QSK.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I didn't say that, I'm sorry, I know that. I run full QSK all
>>>>> the time, with KPA500, N1MM-Winkey or my paddles. And yes, Brian
>>>>> is
>> correct
>>>>> [well, I think, I haven't actually tried it, and I'm not at all
>>>>> sure I know what TX DLY is], but that's not the list item I was

responding to.
>>>>> Somehow, being "correct," even if it doesn't respond the the
>>>>> original question has become the current badge. Probably not a good
trend.

>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fred, I'm willing to bet that you have your WinKey USB set up to
>> control
>>>>>> the PTT -- or maybe you have a foot switch. You are not using
>>>>>> either semi-QSK or full QSK. That is why you don't have the problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> How much are you willing to bet? :-))
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Try this: make sure you are using either full or semi-QSK. Turn
>>>>>> on
>> QRQ
>>>>>> mode and send some V's at about 40 wpm. It should sound fine.
>>>>>> Then
>> hit
>>>>>> RIT and send a few more. You'll see.
>>>>>
>>>>> Vic, I can't send V's at 40 WPM with my paddle any more, too many
>>>>> accumulated birthdays, could when younger.
>>>>>
>>>>> So FOTL ["Folks Of The List"] ... how about we get back to basics.
>>>>> I was responding to David Cole, who has been moderately active on
>>>>> this list recently trying to figure out how to buy a K3 and what
>>>>> he wants with it. I don't know David, but his questions all
>>>>> smacked of sincerity. I think David is more concerned than he
>>>>> needs to be about the K3 he's ordered, probably 99% of us know
>>>>> he's going to love it. He gets concerned about some of the
>>>>> peripheral threads on this list, all welcome, but we're a diverse
>>>>> group and not everything that someone is concerned about is our

concern.
>>>>>
>>>>> Learning how to sort that out takes time and experience, and if
>>>>> we're lucky, some advice. David wants a K3, he's done his
>>>>> research, but he's still sensitive to peripheral posts on the list
>>>>> that suggest he may
>> have
>>>>> made a wrong decision. How about we all have a little compassion
>>>>> for David and all the others like him. This is a hard list to
>>>>> follow, especially if you might not be hugely technically
knowledgeable.

>>>>>
>>>>> David, you will really enjoy your K3. Just use it out of the box
>>>>> for awhile and get to know it. You'll be able to figure out the
>>>>> rest, and you'll always have help here.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73,
>>>>>
>>>>> Fred K6DGW
>>>>> - Northern California Contest Club
>>>>> - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
>>>>> - www.cqp.org
>>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
>>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
>>> [hidden email]
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
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>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
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>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
>> [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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wayne burdick

Re: Side Effects of QRQ On The K3

Administrator

In reply to this post by Stephen G4SJP

We intend to improve this in a future firmware release.

Wayne
N6KR

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