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wire for random wire antenna using kx3

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rwwatson

wire for random wire antenna using kx3

Good morning list,
I was wondering what folks thought about using speaker wire for a
quick indoor antenna for my kx3.
I've got one of those nelson antennas 9:1 unun and the tuner in the
kx3. Do I need heavier wire and would that make a difference?
thanks and 73 - rick n3gms
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David Bunte

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

Rick -

I think speaker wire would work just fine. Up to a point, wire is wire. I
used some #18 insulated wire, with a 9:1 un-un and a KX3 while visiting in
Florida several years ago. I ran the wire between two trees, as high as I
could get it, and the tuner in the KX3 matched it on 160 through 10 meters.
It was temporary, as I was down there for only 3 weeks, but I had a ball,
and was amazed at how well it worked, all around the globe.

73 es gl de Dave - K9FN

On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 8:11 AM Richard watson <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Good morning list,
> I was wondering what folks thought about using speaker wire for a
> quick indoor antenna for my kx3.
> I've got one of those nelson antennas 9:1 unun and the tuner in the
> kx3. Do I need heavier wire and would that make a difference?
> thanks and 73 - rick n3gms
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

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Gio

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by rwwatson

Hi Rick,

I don't think so. I use speaker wire with my EARCHI antenna--maybe 18-20
gauge-- 25' of coax, 9:1 un-un, and it works just fine. Also a KX3.

73,

John K4ARQ

On Mon, Dec 17, 2018, 08:12 Richard watson <[hidden email]
wrote:

Don Wilhelm

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by rwwatson

Rick,

Certainly it will work, and makes for a quick temporary antenna,
particularly indoors.
However, if you are using the speaker wire as a transmission line, it
has relatively high loss characteristics, and I would recommend that you
think about replacing the transmission line part with real parallel
transmission line for a more permanent installation.

For the radiator section, the speaker wire can remain.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/17/2018 8:10 AM, Richard watson wrote:
> Good morning list,
> I was wondering what folks thought about using speaker wire for a
> quick indoor antenna for my kx3.
> I've got one of those nelson antennas 9:1 unun and the tuner in the
> kx3. Do I need heavier wire and would that make a difference?
> thanks and 73 - rick n3gms
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Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

Yes, but speaker wire is only good for audio up to about 25 kHz. It has a
frequency limiting component in the wire alloy that must be removed in order
to use this type wire at RF.

This removal procedure is fairly easy to accomplish. First, soak the wire
in a bucket of laundry detergent and water over night, then remove the wire
and rinse it thoroughly.
After assuring the wire is dry, place in an oven set to about 150 degrees
for about 3 - 4 hours.
In lieu of the oven, you can also place the wire in an afternoon of summer
sun.
After that, place the wire on the ground and hold a 2 meter hand-held over
the wire, approximately a foot away and key up the radio for 20 seconds at a
couple watts output.
If you see no reaction, sparking, especially tingling in your ears, or
physical movement of the wire, it is now safe to use as an antenna.

Note this advice is given freely and may be disseminated with no intended
royalty charges or copyright infringements.

73, Charlie k3ICH

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On
Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 9:46 AM
To: Richard watson <[hidden email]>; elecraft
<[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

Rick,

Certainly it will work, and makes for a quick temporary antenna,
particularly indoors.
However, if you are using the speaker wire as a transmission line, it has
relatively high loss characteristics, and I would recommend that you think
about replacing the transmission line part with real parallel transmission
line for a more permanent installation.

For the radiator section, the speaker wire can remain.

73,
Don W3FPR

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Don Wilhelm

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha!
Where can we find that information? Website please.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/17/2018 10:09 AM, Charlie T wrote:

KENT TRIMBLE

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

April came fast!

K9ZTV

On 12/17/2018 9:28 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha!
> Where can we find that information? Website please.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 12/17/2018 10:09 AM, Charlie T wrote:
>> Yes, but speaker wire is only good for audio up to about 25 kHz. It
>> has a
>> frequency limiting component in the wire alloy that must be removed
>> in order
>> to use this type wire at RF.
>>
>> This removal procedure is fairly easy to accomplish. First, soak the
>> wire
>> in a bucket of laundry detergent and water over night, then remove
>> the wire
>> and rinse it thoroughly.
>> After assuring the wire is dry, place in an oven set to about 150
>> degrees
>> for about 3 - 4 hours.
>> In lieu of the oven, you can also place the wire in an afternoon of
>> summer
>> sun.
>> After that, place the wire on the ground and hold a 2 meter hand-held
>> over
>> the wire, approximately a foot away and key up the radio for 20
>> seconds at a
>> couple watts output.
>> If you see no reaction, sparking, especially tingling in your ears, or
>> physical movement of the wire, it is now safe to use as an antenna.
>>
>> Note this advice is given freely and may be disseminated with no
>> intended
>> royalty charges or copyright infringements.
>>
>> 73, Charlie k3ICH
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
>

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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

Be sure the wire is LCOF copper. The electrons are reported to move
faster and with less resistance in that medium. This makes your signal
get to the DX station faster than anyone else . HA HA HA

Seriously folks,   to evaluate the insulation on the zip cord or speaker
wire, my method is to strip off about 6" of the insulation. Be sure
there's no copper left inside. Then put the insulation in the microwave
along with a cup of water for a microwave load. Heat for about 30
seconds.    If the insulation is hot, it is not good for RF
properties.   If the insulation is cool, it is OK for RF.     I would
suspect that color may have different results.   Try clear, brown,
white, black to see if there is any difference.

If the insulation melts............clean the microwave before the XYL
discovers the mess.

I find that #16 to #18 zip cord, is nominally about 75 ohms Z and in my
portable operation I work with 100 watts without any known issues.

73

Bob, K4TAX

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Edward R Cole

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by rwwatson

I see the humour genes is alive and well in some hams!

But seriously plastic coated wire will work on HF antennas, though
you may see a slight lenthening of resonant length vs bare wire.

My 80m/40m fan inverted-V is made of coated copper-weld and I just
tuned it using my MFJ-269B antenna analyzer. My 43 by 122-foot
inverted-L (630m band) is also the same copper-weld steel. It uses a
huge base coil that set the tap for resonance. Z = 20 +0j It warms
worms well in the winter with 100w input and 4w EIRP.

Years ago I made a light-weight 80m dipole using 18ga speaker
wire. Worked Anchorage over 500 mi with 100w from a checkpoint on
the Iditarod Sled Dog race.

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
[hidden email]

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k6dgw

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by Charlie T, K3ICH

Larson E. Rapp is using an alias now?

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 12/17/2018 7:09 AM, Charlie T wrote:

Jim Brown-10

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

On 12/17/2018 6:45 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> However, if you are using the speaker wire as a transmission line, it
> has relatively high loss characteristics

Compared to what? So-called speaker wire (which is really lousy for
speakers because it should be twisted pair to minimize RFI) has Zo in
the range of 75-100 ohms. Unless it's wet, virtually all the loss in
transmission lines below about 100 MHz is due to wire resistance, not
dielectric loss. There is, of course, additional loss due to any
mismatch that may be present, but that still comes down to loss in the
resistance of the line. While I haven't measured any zip cord, I've
measured a lot of closely spaced parallel wire transmission line made
from THHN, enameled copper, and Teflon insulated #12 silver-coated
copper. In order of loss at dB/100 ft at 10 MHz from low to high, the
Teflon #12 is lowest at 0.94dB, then RG400 at 1.22 dB (about the same as
RG58), then #12 THHN at 1.34 dB. #12 or #10 enameled copper had the
greatest loss, 2.4 dB/100 ft.

73, Jim K9YC

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Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT-3

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

I didn't think from the original post that this was going to be used as
transmission line.

I pictured simply tying both sides of the speaker wire to one terminal
on the UN-UN.

Speaker wire because he has it, vs. buying wire specifically for a
temporary antenna.

"Random wire" so the 9:1 transformer is needed if it's close to a
resonant length and he's feeding the end, maybe not if the wire is some
non-resonant length, like 53 feet or so.

73 -- Lynn

On 12/17/2018 11:58 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

> On 12/17/2018 6:45 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> However, if you are using the speaker wire as a transmission line, it
>> has relatively high loss characteristics
>
> Compared to what? So-called speaker wire (which is really lousy for
> speakers because it should be twisted pair to minimize RFI) has Zo in
> the range of 75-100 ohms. Unless it's wet, virtually all the loss in
> transmission lines below about 100 MHz is due to wire resistance, not
> dielectric loss. There is, of course, additional loss due to any
> mismatch that may be present, but that still comes down to loss in the
> resistance of the line. While I haven't measured any zip cord, I've
> measured a lot of closely spaced parallel wire transmission line made
> from THHN, enameled copper, and Teflon insulated #12 silver-coated
> copper. In order of loss at dB/100 ft at 10 MHz from low to high, the
> Teflon #12 is lowest at 0.94dB, then RG400 at 1.22 dB (about the same as
> RG58), then #12 THHN at 1.34 dB. #12 or #10 enameled copper had the
> greatest loss, 2.4 dB/100 ft.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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Bob Nielsen-4

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by k6dgw

I miss good old WIOU. He had some technical insights which were unique,
to say the least.

Bob, N7XY

On 12/17/18 11:03 AM, Fred Jensen wrote:

> Larson E. Rapp is using an alias now?
>
> 73,
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County
>
> On 12/17/2018 7:09 AM, Charlie T wrote:
>> Yes, but speaker wire is only good for audio up to about 25 kHz. It
>> has a
>> frequency limiting component in the wire alloy that must be removed
>> in order
>> to use this type wire at RF.
>>
>> This removal procedure is fairly easy to accomplish. First, soak the
>> wire
>> in a bucket of laundry detergent and water over night, then remove
>> the wire
>> and rinse it thoroughly.
>> After assuring the wire is dry, place in an oven set to about 150
>> degrees
>> for about 3 - 4 hours.
>> In lieu of the oven, you can also place the wire in an afternoon of
>> summer
>> sun.
>> After that, place the wire on the ground and hold a 2 meter hand-held
>> over
>> the wire, approximately a foot away and key up the radio for 20
>> seconds at a
>> couple watts output.
>> If you see no reaction, sparking, especially tingling in your ears, or
>> physical movement of the wire, it is now safe to use as an antenna.
>>
>> Note this advice is given freely and may be disseminated with no
>> intended
>> royalty charges or copyright infringements.
>>
>> 73, Charlie k3ICH
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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John Oppenheimer

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

On 12/17/18 1:58 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> In order of loss at dB/100 ft at 10 MHz from low to high, the
> Teflon #12 is lowest at 0.94dB, then RG400 at 1.22 dB (about the same as
> RG58), then #12 THHN at 1.34 dB. #12 or #10 enameled copper had the
> greatest loss, 2.4 dB/100 ft.

Hi Jim,

Two parallel transmission line is the easiest of all to evaluate using a
RF resistance table and knowing the impedance of the line.
http://ve3efc.ca/wireohms.htm

The wire loss is dB = 10 * log10((Zo + WireR)/Zo)

Assuming Zo=100 for the #12 Teflon and THHN. R at 10 MHz = 4.24/100 =
8.48/200.

Wire dB = 10 * log10(108.48 / 100) = 0.35 dB

Using the two values above at 10 MHz, 0.94 and 1.34, the dielectric loss
is 0.59 dB and 1 dB. The dielectric loss is about two and three times
the wire loss.

John KN5L
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Jim Brown-10

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

This overly simplified equation fails to account for proximity effect.

On 12/17/2018 12:58 PM, John Oppenheimer wrote:

> On 12/17/18 1:58 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
>> In order of loss at dB/100 ft at 10 MHz from low to high, the
>> Teflon #12 is lowest at 0.94dB, then RG400 at 1.22 dB (about the same as
>> RG58), then #12 THHN at 1.34 dB. #12 or #10 enameled copper had the
>> greatest loss, 2.4 dB/100 ft.
> Hi Jim,
>
> Two parallel transmission line is the easiest of all to evaluate using a
> RF resistance table and knowing the impedance of the line.
> http://ve3efc.ca/wireohms.htm
>
> The wire loss is dB = 10 * log10((Zo + WireR)/Zo)
>
> Assuming Zo=100 for the #12 Teflon and THHN. R at 10 MHz = 4.24/100 =
> 8.48/200.
>
> Wire dB = 10 * log10(108.48 / 100) = 0.35 dB
>
> Using the two values above at 10 MHz, 0.94 and 1.34, the dielectric loss
> is 0.59 dB and 1 dB. The dielectric loss is about two and three times
> the wire loss.
>
> John KN5L
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

DC-3

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by Charlie T, K3ICH

Good one!

Many hams now-days miss the most important point of all, I have never
made a contact by computer modeling, and worrying about wire type and
size. Back in the day, you put something up and experimented from there
-- making contacts along the way. Now, folks look at the internet and
then second guess everything they read to the point of information
overload and analyses paralyses.

Too Bad,

Richard

K6VV

On 12/17/2018 7:09 AM, Charlie T wrote:

> Yes, but speaker wire is only good for audio up to about 25 kHz. It has a
> frequency limiting component in the wire alloy that must be removed in order
> to use this type wire at RF.
>
> This removal procedure is fairly easy to accomplish. First, soak the wire
> in a bucket of laundry detergent and water over night, then remove the wire
> and rinse it thoroughly.
> After assuring the wire is dry, place in an oven set to about 150 degrees
> for about 3 - 4 hours.
> In lieu of the oven, you can also place the wire in an afternoon of summer
> sun.
> After that, place the wire on the ground and hold a 2 meter hand-held over
> the wire, approximately a foot away and key up the radio for 20 seconds at a
> couple watts output.
> If you see no reaction, sparking, especially tingling in your ears, or
> physical movement of the wire, it is now safe to use as an antenna.
>
> Note this advice is given freely and may be disseminated with no intended
> royalty charges or copyright infringements.
>
> 73, Charlie k3ICH
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On
> Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 9:46 AM
> To: Richard watson <[hidden email]>; elecraft
> <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3
>
> Rick,
>
> Certainly it will work, and makes for a quick temporary antenna,
> particularly indoors.
> However, if you are using the speaker wire as a transmission line, it has
> relatively high loss characteristics, and I would recommend that you think
> about replacing the transmission line part with real parallel transmission
> line for a more permanent installation.
>
> For the radiator section, the speaker wire can remain.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

riese-k3djc

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by rwwatson

if you can find telephone house service wire,,, is copper clad and
impossible to brake

Bob K3DJC

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 09:04:04 -0900 Edward R Cole <[hidden email]>
writes:

> I see the humour genes is alive and well in some hams!
>
> But seriously plastic coated wire will work on HF antennas, though
> you may see a slight lenthening of resonant length vs bare wire.
>
> My 80m/40m fan inverted-V is made of coated copper-weld and I just
> tuned it using my MFJ-269B antenna analyzer. My 43 by 122-foot
> inverted-L (630m band) is also the same copper-weld steel. It uses
> a
> huge base coil that set the tap for resonance. Z = 20 +0j It warms
>
> worms well in the winter with 100w input and 4w EIRP.
>
> Years ago I made a light-weight 80m dipole using 18ga speaker
> wire. Worked Anchorage over 500 mi with 100w from a checkpoint on
> the Iditarod Sled Dog race.
>
> 73, Ed - KL7UW
> http://www.kl7uw.com
> Dubus-NA Business mail:
> [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

riese-k3djc

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by rwwatson

if you can find telephone house service wire,,, is copper clad and
impossible to brake
makes good antenna,, not for use as feeders though

Bob K3DJC

>
>
> On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 09:04:04 -0900 Edward R Cole
> <[hidden email]> writes:
> > I see the humour genes is alive and well in some hams!
> >
> > But seriously plastic coated wire will work on HF antennas, though
>
> > you may see a slight lenthening of resonant length vs bare wire.
> >
> > My 80m/40m fan inverted-V is made of coated copper-weld and I just
>
> > tuned it using my MFJ-269B antenna analyzer. My 43 by 122-foot
> > inverted-L (630m band) is also the same copper-weld steel. It
> uses
> > a
> > huge base coil that set the tap for resonance. Z = 20 +0j It
> warms
> >
> > worms well in the winter with 100w input and 4w EIRP.
> >
> > Years ago I made a light-weight 80m dipole using 18ga speaker
> > wire. Worked Anchorage over 500 mi with 100w from a checkpoint on
>
> > the Iditarod Sled Dog race.
> >
> > 73, Ed - KL7UW
> > http://www.kl7uw.com
> > Dubus-NA Business mail:
> > [hidden email]
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >

John Oppenheimer

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

On 12/17/18 3:11 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> This overly simplified equation fails to account for proximity effe
Proximity effect will effect impedance, which will then effect the loss.

The wire loss equation is dependent on the TL Zo. The previous example
was for Zo=100. Using Zo=75, wire loss for #12 is 0.47 dB/100. For the
Teflon, that would leave 0.47 dB for dielectric loss. This is sounding
closer.

John KN5L

> On 12/17/2018 12:58 PM, John Oppenheimer wrote:
>> On 12/17/18 1:58 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
>>> In order of loss at dB/100 ft at 10 MHz from low to high, the
>>> Teflon #12 is lowest at 0.94dB, then RG400 at 1.22 dB (about the same as
>>> RG58), then #12 THHN at 1.34 dB. #12 or #10 enameled copper had the
>>> greatest loss, 2.4 dB/100 ft.
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>> Two parallel transmission line is the easiest of all to evaluate using a
>> RF resistance table and knowing the impedance of the line.
>> http://ve3efc.ca/wireohms.htm
>>
>> The wire loss is dB = 10 * log10((Zo + WireR)/Zo)
>>
>> Assuming Zo=100 for the #12 Teflon and THHN. R at 10 MHz = 4.24/100 =
>> 8.48/200.
>>
>> Wire dB = 10 * log10(108.48 / 100) = 0.35 dB
>>
>> Using the two values above at 10 MHz, 0.94 and 1.34, the dielectric loss
>> is 0.59 dB and 1 dB. The dielectric loss is about two and three times
>> the wire loss.
>>
>> John KN5L

Don Wilhelm

Re: wire for random wire antenna using kx3

In reply to this post by riese-k3djc

Does this mean that the electrons just will not stop?
I brake my car when I need to stop it.
I fix it when it it breaks.

If I pull on the wire enough, it certainly will break.

Proper spelling equals meaningful words - the English language is
complicated, but I thought we learned many of the spelling differences
in grade 6 - here vs. hear, there vs. their, etc. even though they sound
the same.
It seems that texting and "OMG", "LOL" and such have devalued our use of
good language and spelling skills.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/17/2018 4:24 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> if you can find telephone house service wire,,, is copper clad and
> impossible to brake
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