Elecraft

Gurus

Classic

List

Threaded

46 messages Options

123

alorona

Gurus

When this subject appeared last week I had composed a reply but then slept on it and canceled it the next morning, as I probably do 80% of the time.

In this my second attempt, let me say that I've always been amazed at the power wielded by Rob Sherwood. Thousands of hams hang on his latest tests. If he deems a new radio exceptional in some way, that can mean many millions of dollars for a manufacturer.

And yet, if there were no such thing as gurus on the web and at places like Dayton expounding about how Brand A is better than Brand B, how would you answer the questions, "Do I like this transceiver?," and, "Is it any good?"

You'd probably get on the air and use it, and decide that way.

But we constantly have gurus telling us that Brand A is the 'best' which horrifies us if up until now we liked Brand B better. Against our personal experience we flip-flop and say, "Gee, I used to like Brand B, but Brand A must be better because the gurus say so."

Yet, there will always be guys who'll be tortured owning a transceiver that has the 2nd highest dynamic range, or the 3rd best distortion. Never mind if they can't actually hear the differences.

It's how a rig *sounds and feels* during actual operating that's most important. Not the numbers. For instance, Wes made a comment about his tuning knob, and although some of you might have laughed at that... it's darned important! That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Here's my opinion on ranking receivers by 2 kHz 3rd order dynamic range: almost any modern receiver has enough dynamic range to make this ranking more and more meaningless as time goes on. Sherwood himself has said that 90 dB or above is plenty enough. To understand why, see this post from 2016 by one of the old guys on this reflector: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-The-Way-We-Rank-Receivers-long-td7623639.html

Lastly, if you've been enjoying your rig for years and then hear someone else complain about a flaw you weren't even aware of, don't panic. There are a million reasons why his concerns might not involve you in the least.

Above all, have fun.

Al W6LX/4
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Julia Tuttle

Re: Gurus

I'm gonna second "above all, have fun"!

If it brings you joy to have the highest performing rig you can, cool, and
I hope it serves you well.

But if a different aspect of a radio, or even one you can't name, brings
you joy, that's also cool, and I'm happy it makes you happy!

My KX3 isn't at the top of the Sherwood list, it doesn't have a panadapter
(...yet), and connecting it up for digital modes is a bit of a rat's nest...

...but I'll be darned if it isn't just fun as shit to use. The UI is well
thought out, the VFO knob is a work of art, (surprisingly) the compact size
makes it more approachable/friendly for it, and the community here around
it (as heated as it can get) is tighter-knit.

None of those show up in a spec sheet or lab testing Get what makes *you*
happy, and share your experience so the next ham can do the same.

Cheers,

Julie

On Tue, Jun 8, 2021, 21:57 Al Lorona <[hidden email]> wrote:

> When this subject appeared last week I had composed a reply but then slept
> on it and canceled it the next morning, as I probably do 80% of the time.
>
> In this my second attempt, let me say that I've always been amazed at the
> power wielded by Rob Sherwood. Thousands of hams hang on his latest tests.
> If he deems a new radio exceptional in some way, that can mean many
> millions of dollars for a manufacturer.
>
> And yet, if there were no such thing as gurus on the web and at places
> like Dayton expounding about how Brand A is better than Brand B, how would
> you answer the questions, "Do I like this transceiver?," and, "Is it any
> good?"
>
> You'd probably get on the air and use it, and decide that way.
>
> But we constantly have gurus telling us that Brand A is the 'best' which
> horrifies us if up until now we liked Brand B better. Against our personal
> experience we flip-flop and say, "Gee, I used to like Brand B, but Brand A
> must be better because the gurus say so."
>
> Yet, there will always be guys who'll be tortured owning a transceiver
> that has the 2nd highest dynamic range, or the 3rd best distortion. Never
> mind if they can't actually hear the differences.
>
> It's how a rig *sounds and feels* during actual operating that's most
> important. Not the numbers. For instance, Wes made a comment about his
> tuning knob, and although some of you might have laughed at that... it's
> darned important! That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.
>
> Here's my opinion on ranking receivers by 2 kHz 3rd order dynamic range:
> almost any modern receiver has enough dynamic range to make this ranking
> more and more meaningless as time goes on. Sherwood himself has said that
> 90 dB or above is plenty enough. To understand why, see this post from 2016
> by one of the old guys on this reflector:
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-The-Way-We-Rank-Receivers-long-td7623639.html
>
>
> Lastly, if you've been enjoying your rig for years and then hear someone
> else complain about a flaw you weren't even aware of, don't panic. There
> are a million reasons why his concerns might not involve you in the least.
>
> Above all, have fun.
>
> Al W6LX/4
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Vic Rosenthal

Re: Gurus

In reply to this post by alorona

I live in a place where there is a ham with a legal limit rig and a big
beam less than 1 km. away. Antennas are line of sight. His signal
renders about 10-20 kHz of the (CW) band unusable, with lesser effects
extending out farther. He does not have clicks; it is phase noise (or
something like that).

I have experimented with attenuators and they have NO effect on the
apparent width of his signal. Therefore I conclude that the problem is
not in my receiver (K3, not S, upgraded synthesizers).

I don't know what kind of transceiver he is using, but I think more
attention needs to be paid to transmitter cleanliness, rather than to
continue the race for dynamic range.

73,
Victor, 4X6GP
Rehovot, Israel
CWops #5
Formerly K2VCO
https://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

On 09/06/2021 4:57, Al Lorona wrote:

<snip>

> Here's my opinion on ranking receivers by 2 kHz 3rd order dynamic
> range: almost any modern receiver has enough dynamic range to make
> this ranking more and more meaningless as time goes on. Sherwood
> himself has said that 90 dB or above is plenty enough. To understand
> why, see this post from 2016 by one of the old guys on this
> reflector:
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-The-Way-We-Rank-Receivers-long-td7623639.html
>
> Lastly, if you've been enjoying your rig for years and then hear
> someone else complain about a flaw you weren't even aware of, don't
> panic. There are a million reasons why his concerns might not involve
> you in the least.
>
> Above all, have fun.
>
> Al W6LX/4

Jim Brown-10

Re: Gurus

Exactly right, Vic. A dirty rig, whether generating clicks or phase
noise, is putting his trash on YOUR frequency. You are screwed by his
choice of a lousy radio. And he doesn't care. I've got a neighbor like
that.

73, Jim K9YC

On 6/9/2021 12:45 AM, Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP wrote:

> I live in a place where there is a ham with a legal limit rig and a big
> beam less than 1 km. away. Antennas are line of sight. His signal
> renders about 10-20 kHz of the (CW) band unusable, with lesser effects
> extending out farther. He does not have clicks; it is phase noise (or
> something like that).
>
> I have experimented with attenuators and they have NO effect on the
> apparent width of his signal. Therefore I conclude that the problem is
> not in my receiver (K3, not S, upgraded synthesizers).
>
> I don't know what kind of transceiver he is using, but I think more
> attention needs to be paid to transmitter cleanliness, rather than to
> continue the race for dynamic range.

Gwen Patton

Re: Gurus

I have one of those legal-limit hams about 2.5 km from my house. Seems a
nice enough guy, except that he uses 1.5kw for EVERYTHING. When he gets on
40m, I hear him on 2 other bands via harmonics. He splatters all over 40 so
there's no reason for me to even have my rig turned on when he starts
transmitting. I can't tell if it's a bad radio on his end or just front end
overload on my end. It's frustrating to try to do a bit of CW and find that
I can hear him almost as well on 15m as on 40 and 20. I haven't checked
10m, but my guess is I'll hear him there, too.

I talked to him about it, and he basically blamed it on my radio's
insufficient rejection. It's a KX3. Is he right, or should he check his
radio for unstable harmonics?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
73,
Gwen, NG3P

On Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 4:24 AM Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Exactly right, Vic. A dirty rig, whether generating clicks or phase
> noise, is putting his trash on YOUR frequency. You are screwed by his
> choice of a lousy radio. And he doesn't care. I've got a neighbor like
> that.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> On 6/9/2021 12:45 AM, Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP wrote:
> > I live in a place where there is a ham with a legal limit rig and a big
> > beam less than 1 km. away. Antennas are line of sight. His signal
> > renders about 10-20 kHz of the (CW) band unusable, with lesser effects
> > extending out farther. He does not have clicks; it is phase noise (or
> > something like that).
> >
> > I have experimented with attenuators and they have NO effect on the
> > apparent width of his signal. Therefore I conclude that the problem is
> > not in my receiver (K3, not S, upgraded synthesizers).
> >
> > I don't know what kind of transceiver he is using, but I think more
> > attention needs to be paid to transmitter cleanliness, rather than to
> > continue the race for dynamic range.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

JHRichards

Re: Gurus

In reply to this post by alorona

Anyone condemning other hams for using "dirty transmitters" is simply
out of line.

The ordinary ham is NOT an Electrical Engineer and he buys his rig in
good faith, believing it passed FCC and other engineering standards.
He uses it in good faith, assuming it is OK and not causing problems.
But then, a few self-appointed Frequency Cops condemn the poor operator
as a bad citizen for using a "dirty transmitter" as if the operator is
somehow to blame.   I have worked a lot of contests with crowded
conditions in a large metropolitan area, and nobody has ever whined
about any of this, notwithstanding a couple of self-appointed experts
living in the mountains of CA and CO claim it is a horrible epidemic.
Besides, if this was such big problem why is it such a new, current
topic? Supposedly, all those old rigs have been noisy all the time.   I
suspect it is topical only because they have nothing else to talk about.

Well, even if it is a problem, there is no place for this sort of
personal attack in ham radio, AND IT IS SIMPLY WRONG TO BLAME THE
OPERATOR for how his rig works.   For most ops, ham radio is just a
hobby and they are entitled to expect their radios will work right.
Blaming the operator is simply out of line.   K8JHR

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

NK7Z

Re: Gurus

In reply to this post by Gwen Patton

Buy an attenuator, and a tinySA, or get an SDRPlay, and run the Spectrum
Analyzer software. Take a few SA shots, that will tell you if it is
him, or you.

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 6/9/21 8:46 AM, Gwen Patton wrote:

> I have one of those legal-limit hams about 2.5 km from my house. Seems a
> nice enough guy, except that he uses 1.5kw for EVERYTHING. When he gets on
> 40m, I hear him on 2 other bands via harmonics. He splatters all over 40 so
> there's no reason for me to even have my rig turned on when he starts
> transmitting. I can't tell if it's a bad radio on his end or just front end
> overload on my end. It's frustrating to try to do a bit of CW and find that
> I can hear him almost as well on 15m as on 40 and 20. I haven't checked
> 10m, but my guess is I'll hear him there, too.
>
> I talked to him about it, and he basically blamed it on my radio's
> insufficient rejection. It's a KX3. Is he right, or should he check his
> radio for unstable harmonics?
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> 73,
> Gwen, NG3P
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 4:24 AM Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Exactly right, Vic. A dirty rig, whether generating clicks or phase
>> noise, is putting his trash on YOUR frequency. You are screwed by his
>> choice of a lousy radio. And he doesn't care. I've got a neighbor like
>> that.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>
>> On 6/9/2021 12:45 AM, Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP wrote:
>>> I live in a place where there is a ham with a legal limit rig and a big
>>> beam less than 1 km. away. Antennas are line of sight. His signal
>>> renders about 10-20 kHz of the (CW) band unusable, with lesser effects
>>> extending out farther. He does not have clicks; it is phase noise (or
>>> something like that).
>>>
>>> I have experimented with attenuators and they have NO effect on the
>>> apparent width of his signal. Therefore I conclude that the problem is
>>> not in my receiver (K3, not S, upgraded synthesizers).
>>>
>>> I don't know what kind of transceiver he is using, but I think more
>>> attention needs to be paid to transmitter cleanliness, rather than to
>>> continue the race for dynamic range.
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Julia Tuttle

Re: Gurus

In reply to this post by JHRichards

Nobody was blaming the operator. Gwen was asking whose *radio* was to blame.

And "hey, your radio seems to be putting out some pretty strong
interference on the harmonics, can you fix that?" isn't a personal attack.
The answer might be "no, I have no idea how or why it is", though.

But, regardless of how "dirty" a radio is or isn't, it's reasonable to ask
someone to turn the power down when they don't need it -- it can overload
receivers, it can amplify any noise the radio is putting out, and it takes
up that spectrum in a wider geographic area than is needed.

On Wed, Jun 9, 2021, 20:14 Richards <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Anyone condemning other hams for using "dirty transmitters" is simply
> out of line.
>
> The ordinary ham is NOT an Electrical Engineer and he buys his rig in
> good faith, believing it passed FCC and other engineering standards.
> He uses it in good faith, assuming it is OK and not causing problems.
> But then, a few self-appointed Frequency Cops condemn the poor operator
> as a bad citizen for using a "dirty transmitter" as if the operator is
> somehow to blame. I have worked a lot of contests with crowded
> conditions in a large metropolitan area, and nobody has ever whined
> about any of this, notwithstanding a couple of self-appointed experts
> living in the mountains of CA and CO claim it is a horrible epidemic.
> Besides, if this was such big problem why is it such a new, current
> topic? Supposedly, all those old rigs have been noisy all the time. I
> suspect it is topical only because they have nothing else to talk about.
>
> Well, even if it is a problem, there is no place for this sort of
> personal attack in ham radio, AND IT IS SIMPLY WRONG TO BLAME THE
> OPERATOR for how his rig works. For most ops, ham radio is just a
> hobby and they are entitled to expect their radios will work right.
> Blaming the operator is simply out of line. K8JHR
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

NK7Z

Re: Gurus

In reply to this post by JHRichards

I must respectfully disagree sir...

The ordinary ham should be able to tell when his/her rig is out of spec.
The ordinary ham should be able to operate his/her rig correctly.
That is just no longer the case. There are a lot of folks out there
that don't even know how a repeater works at the most basic of levels.
They are operating HF rigs with no understanding of how they work, and
no understanding of what limits they need to maintain.

They create a mess on the air, and should be told about it. Nicely, but
told non the less. It is far better to have a fellow ham tell you you
have an issue, than have the FCC tell you...

Speaking of the FCC, I don't remember the FCC turning over
responsibility for signal quality to the manufactures of radios,
absolving the operator of all responsibility... It is the operators job
to make sure he/she is operating their radio correctly, and within
tolerance, period, end of discussion, the operator is responsible.

If he/she can not tell there is a problem, than that ham should not be
allowed to transmit...

There are dirty transmitters all over, and they meet FCC specs... How
can that be you might ask yourself?

In a lot of cases, the operator is not knowledgeable in how to drive the
transmitter properly, or that low voltages feeding the transmitter can
cause issues, or that triggering ALC in FT8 causes issues, there are any
number of settings the Amateur can screw up, and the rig meets FCC
specs...

So no, it is not "out of line" to let someone know their transmitter is
spraying crap.

On 6/9/21 5:02 PM, Richards wrote:

> Anyone condemning other hams for using "dirty transmitters" is simply
> out of line.
>
> The ordinary ham is NOT an Electrical Engineer and he buys his rig in
> good faith, believing it passed FCC and other engineering standards. He
> uses it in good faith, assuming it is OK and not causing problems. But
> then, a few self-appointed Frequency Cops condemn the poor operator as a
> bad citizen for using a "dirty transmitter" as if the operator is
> somehow to blame.   I have worked a lot of contests with crowded
> conditions in a large metropolitan area, and nobody has ever whined
> about any of this, notwithstanding a couple of self-appointed experts
> living in the mountains of CA and CO claim it is a horrible epidemic.
> Besides, if this was such big problem why is it such a new, current
> topic? Supposedly, all those old rigs have been noisy all the time.   I
> suspect it is topical only because they have nothing else to talk about.
>
> Well, even if it is a problem, there is no place for this sort of
> personal attack in ham radio, AND IT IS SIMPLY WRONG TO BLAME THE
> OPERATOR for how his rig works.   For most ops, ham radio is just a
> hobby and they are entitled to expect their radios will work right.
> Blaming the operator is simply out of line.   K8JHR
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Buddy Brannan

Re: Gurus

In reply to this post by Julia Tuttle

Not to mention the FCC rules (remember those? We had them on the test…) say that we should use the minimum amount of power necessary.

Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Email: [hidden email]
Mobile: (814) 431-0962

> On Jun 9, 2021, at 8:46 PM, Julia Tuttle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Nobody was blaming the operator. Gwen was asking whose *radio* was to blame.
>
> And "hey, your radio seems to be putting out some pretty strong
> interference on the harmonics, can you fix that?" isn't a personal attack.
> The answer might be "no, I have no idea how or why it is", though.
>
> But, regardless of how "dirty" a radio is or isn't, it's reasonable to ask
> someone to turn the power down when they don't need it -- it can overload
> receivers, it can amplify any noise the radio is putting out, and it takes
> up that spectrum in a wider geographic area than is needed.
>
> On Wed, Jun 9, 2021, 20:14 Richards <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Anyone condemning other hams for using "dirty transmitters" is simply
>> out of line.
>>
>> The ordinary ham is NOT an Electrical Engineer and he buys his rig in
>> good faith, believing it passed FCC and other engineering standards.
>> He uses it in good faith, assuming it is OK and not causing problems.
>> But then, a few self-appointed Frequency Cops condemn the poor operator
>> as a bad citizen for using a "dirty transmitter" as if the operator is
>> somehow to blame. I have worked a lot of contests with crowded
>> conditions in a large metropolitan area, and nobody has ever whined
>> about any of this, notwithstanding a couple of self-appointed experts
>> living in the mountains of CA and CO claim it is a horrible epidemic.
>> Besides, if this was such big problem why is it such a new, current
>> topic? Supposedly, all those old rigs have been noisy all the time. I
>> suspect it is topical only because they have nothing else to talk about.
>>
>> Well, even if it is a problem, there is no place for this sort of
>> personal attack in ham radio, AND IT IS SIMPLY WRONG TO BLAME THE
>> OPERATOR for how his rig works. For most ops, ham radio is just a
>> hobby and they are entitled to expect their radios will work right.
>> Blaming the operator is simply out of line. K8JHR
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Gwen Patton

Re: Gurus

In reply to this post by NK7Z

It wasn't about the operator, it was about the hardware. I talked to the
ham involved, and he's a nice enough bloke. I have no beef with him.

My antennas are, unfortunately, not designed with a useful null. I have an
end feed W3EDP style that works very well, and a Comet CHA-250B vertical.
Neither can reasonably be pointed to attenuate the signal.

Gwen, NG3P

On Wed, Jun 9, 2021, 8:51 PM Dave <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I must respectfully disagree sir...
>
> The ordinary ham should be able to tell when his/her rig is out of spec.
> The ordinary ham should be able to operate his/her rig correctly.
> That is just no longer the case. There are a lot of folks out there
> that don't even know how a repeater works at the most basic of levels.
> They are operating HF rigs with no understanding of how they work, and
> no understanding of what limits they need to maintain.
>
> They create a mess on the air, and should be told about it. Nicely, but
> told non the less. It is far better to have a fellow ham tell you you
> have an issue, than have the FCC tell you...
>
> Speaking of the FCC, I don't remember the FCC turning over
> responsibility for signal quality to the manufactures of radios,
> absolving the operator of all responsibility... It is the operators job
> to make sure he/she is operating their radio correctly, and within
> tolerance, period, end of discussion, the operator is responsible.
>
> If he/she can not tell there is a problem, than that ham should not be
> allowed to transmit...
>
> There are dirty transmitters all over, and they meet FCC specs... How
> can that be you might ask yourself?
>
> In a lot of cases, the operator is not knowledgeable in how to drive the
> transmitter properly, or that low voltages feeding the transmitter can
> cause issues, or that triggering ALC in FT8 causes issues, there are any
> number of settings the Amateur can screw up, and the rig meets FCC
> specs...
>
> So no, it is not "out of line" to let someone know their transmitter is
> spraying crap.
>
> On 6/9/21 5:02 PM, Richards wrote:
> > Anyone condemning other hams for using "dirty transmitters" is simply
> > out of line.
> >
> > The ordinary ham is NOT an Electrical Engineer and he buys his rig in
> > good faith, believing it passed FCC and other engineering standards. He
> > uses it in good faith, assuming it is OK and not causing problems. But
> > then, a few self-appointed Frequency Cops condemn the poor operator as a
> > bad citizen for using a "dirty transmitter" as if the operator is
> > somehow to blame. I have worked a lot of contests with crowded
> > conditions in a large metropolitan area, and nobody has ever whined
> > about any of this, notwithstanding a couple of self-appointed experts
> > living in the mountains of CA and CO claim it is a horrible epidemic.
> > Besides, if this was such big problem why is it such a new, current
> > topic? Supposedly, all those old rigs have been noisy all the time. I
> > suspect it is topical only because they have nothing else to talk about.
> >
> > Well, even if it is a problem, there is no place for this sort of
> > personal attack in ham radio, AND IT IS SIMPLY WRONG TO BLAME THE
> > OPERATOR for how his rig works. For most ops, ham radio is just a
> > hobby and they are entitled to expect their radios will work right.
> > Blaming the operator is simply out of line. K8JHR
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
> Dave
> https://www.nk7z.net
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

David Gilbert-2

Re: Gurus

In reply to this post by JHRichards

That's simply a ridiculous argument. No matter the rig, the ham has the
responsibility not to put trash out on the airwaves. And any ham who
doesn't have a clue whether or not he is putting out trash, or ignores
the feedback from other operators who tell him he is, or knowingly buys
a rig without caring whether or not it does, doesn't belong on the air.

And if other hams who suffer from the clueless ones aren't allowed to
protest, how does the problem ever go away?

Dave AB7E

On 6/9/2021 5:02 PM, Richards wrote:

> Anyone condemning other hams for using "dirty transmitters" is simply
> out of line.
>
> The ordinary ham is NOT an Electrical Engineer and he buys his rig in
> good faith, believing it passed FCC and other engineering standards.
> He uses it in good faith, assuming it is OK and not causing
> problems.   But then, a few self-appointed Frequency Cops condemn the
> poor operator as a bad citizen for using a "dirty transmitter" as if
> the operator is somehow to blame.   I have worked a lot of contests
> with crowded conditions in a large metropolitan area, and nobody has
> ever whined about any of this, notwithstanding a couple of
> self-appointed experts living in the mountains of CA and CO claim it
> is a horrible epidemic.   Besides, if this was such big problem why is
> it such a new, current topic? Supposedly, all those old rigs have been
> noisy all the time.   I suspect it is topical only because they have
> nothing else to talk about.
>
> Well, even if it is a problem, there is no place for this sort of
> personal attack in ham radio, AND IT IS SIMPLY WRONG TO BLAME THE
> OPERATOR for how his rig works.   For most ops, ham radio is just a
> hobby and they are entitled to expect their radios will work right.
> Blaming the operator is simply out of line.   K8JHR
>

Wes Stewart-2

Re: Gurus

In reply to this post by NK7Z

I'm not sure those toys are up to the task.

On 6/9/2021 5:30 PM, Dave wrote:
> Buy an attenuator, and a tinySA, or get an SDRPlay, and run the Spectrum
> Analyzer software. Take a few SA shots, that will tell you if it is him, or you.
>
> 73, and thanks,
> Dave (NK7Z)
> https://www.nk7z.net
> ARRL Volunteer Examiner
> ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
> ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Jim Brown-10

Re: Gurus

In reply to this post by NK7Z

On 6/9/2021 5:51 PM, Dave wrote:
> There are dirty transmitters all over, and they meet FCC specs... How
> can that be you might ask yourself?

FCC Rules include numeric limits for harmonics. The Rules include a
provision that a transmitted signal shall occupy no more bandwidth then
needed for the method/mode of transmission. As a member of the Standards
Committee of the Audio Engineering Society, we used clauses like this so
that we didn't have to cover every possibility. The Rule essentially
says, you've got to be as clean as a well designed, well operated
product/station transmitting the same mode.

The summary I prepared of FCC Lab measurements of the occupied bandwidth
of then-current CW transmitters clearly showed that some occupied FAR
more bandwidth than others. At that time, the K3 was the cleanest, the
FTDX5000 was the dirtiest. My process was simple -- ARRL sent me the
data in electronic form, I plugged into a spreadsheet (actually, several
pages of a spreadsheet, one for clicks, another for phase noise), and
plotted noise amplitude vs frequency for all of them on the same graph.

That report is here. http://k9yc.com/TXNoise.pdf

What that Rule says is that if one manufacturer's rigs occupies 500 Hz
CW bandwidth 50 dB down from the key-down signal, others should meet
that performance, or at least approach it within a reasonable time for
engineering departments to catch up. The K3 was introduced in 2007,
first sold, I think, in 2008. Someone will correct me if needed. Chief
Engineer Wayne Burdick has made no secret of what he did to achieve
that, and after Flex's 6700 measured badly at the lab for bandwidth,
their engineers did something to correct it (maybe Wayne's waveshaping?)
and reports were that it was much cleaner. AFAIK, ARRL has not
re-measured it, and I've not been able to get an owner to bring one over
here to measure.

As to Yaesu's SSB bandwidth -- I first learned about this hearing a
couple of locals on 6M, several months apart. The first was splattering
badly, calling CQ, no one answering, so I called to let him know, and
suggested that maybe he was overdriving his amp. No, he responded, no
amp. What rig? A current model Yaesu. A few months later, same story,
except but the second guy and I knew each other. We went through every
thing I could think of, first, of course, turning off his amp.

My method of studying this is simply to look at the signal on the P3
waterfall. The waterfall trace of a clean signal is a vertical bar about
2-7-2.8 kHz wide, with sides that are straight lines, while one that is
splattering will see horizontal breakouts from that bar on voice peaks.

For general operation, I adjust my spectrum display (the top graph) for
a 32 dB difference between top and bottom of the screen (42 dB for high
power contests), and I set averaging for the maximum value. The result
in the spectrum will show how much bandwidth is being occupied, and I
can freeze the screen, move the cursor along it, read frequency and note
how many dB down the sidebands are away from the carrier. The signals
I've measured have sidebands that are typically only 20 dB down from the
strength of the transmitted audio for about 2.5 kHz on both sides of the
signal. In other words, for LSB, 2.5 kHz above the suppressed carrier,
and 8 kHz below the suppressed carrier. Sadly, because there are no
numbers associated with it (in the Rules), it gets ignored both by
manufacturers and ARRL, who gives passing (sometimes glowing) reviews to
dirty products.

The same spectrum measurement can be made by switching to peak mode,
accumulating peaks for a while, then killing the signal by switching off
the antenna input. In peak mode, of course, the reference point for the
vertical scale must be shifted.

With all of this, one must learn how to set up their P3 (or other
spectrum/waterfall display) to separate the forest from the trees. With
averaging turned on, random noise averages out, leaving signals and
electronic noise. Set the bottom of this noise to the bottom the
display. This will also make signals jump out of both the spectrum
display and the waterfall.

The K3/P3, especially with the SVGA module, is a very nice test
instrument! Most SDRs I've seen are significantly better, with greater
dynamic range on screen, wider possible bandwidths, an frequency
resolution that is as good or better.

73, Jim K9YC

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

NK7Z

Re: Gurus

In reply to this post by Wes Stewart-2

Actually for this use they are... Someone did a compare of the tinySA
to an HP, and it was within a few dB as long as it was overdriven. We
are looking for splatter or harmonics, not doing a proof of performance.

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 6/9/21 7:10 PM, Wes wrote:

> I'm not sure those toys are up to the task.
>
> On 6/9/2021 5:30 PM, Dave wrote:
>> Buy an attenuator, and a tinySA, or get an SDRPlay, and run the
>> Spectrum Analyzer software. Take a few SA shots, that will tell you
>> if it is him, or you.
>>
>> 73, and thanks,
>> Dave (NK7Z)
>> https://www.nk7z.net
>> ARRL Volunteer Examiner
>> ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
>> ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Jim Brown-10

Re: Gurus

On 6/9/2021 8:00 PM, Dave wrote:
> Actually for this use they are... Someone did a compare of the tinySA
> to an HP, and it was within a few dB as long as it was overdriven. We
> are looking for splatter or harmonics, not doing a proof of performance.

A big part of it is knowing what you're doing, and keeping any
non-linearities in the system below the level that matters. It also
depends on the quality of the software running the system.

73, Jim K9YC
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Bill K9YEQ

Re: Gurus

In reply to this post by Julia Tuttle

Here, here, Julie!
Bill
K9YEQ

Have a great day!
Bill

________________________________
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of Julia Tuttle <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021 9:36:00 PM
To: Al Lorona <[hidden email]>
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

I'm gonna second "above all, have fun"!

If it brings you joy to have the highest performing rig you can, cool, and
I hope it serves you well.

But if a different aspect of a radio, or even one you can't name, brings
you joy, that's also cool, and I'm happy it makes you happy!

My KX3 isn't at the top of the Sherwood list, it doesn't have a panadapter
(...yet), and connecting it up for digital modes is a bit of a rat's nest...

...but I'll be darned if it isn't just fun as shit to use. The UI is well
thought out, the VFO knob is a work of art, (surprisingly) the compact size
makes it more approachable/friendly for it, and the community here around
it (as heated as it can get) is tighter-knit.

None of those show up in a spec sheet or lab testing Get what makes *you*
happy, and share your experience so the next ham can do the same.

Cheers,

Julie

On Tue, Jun 8, 2021, 21:57 Al Lorona <[hidden email]> wrote:

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Gary K9GS-2

Re: Gurus

I agree Julie,Just curious, what is your call? I wonder if we've worked?73,Gary K9GS
-------- Original message --------From: Bill Johnson <[hidden email]> Date: 6/9/21 11:32 PM (GMT-05:00) To: Al Lorona <[hidden email]>, Julia Tuttle <[hidden email]> Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Gurus Here, here, Julie!BillK9YEQHave a great day!Bill________________________________From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of Julia Tuttle <[hidden email]>Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021 9:36:00 PMTo: Al Lorona <[hidden email]>Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] GurusI'm gonna second "above all, have fun"!If it brings you joy to have the highest performing rig you can, cool, andI hope it serves you well.But if a different aspect of a radio, or even one you can't name, bringsyou joy, that's also cool, and I'm happy it makes you happy!My KX3 isn't at the top of the Sherwood list, it doesn't have a panadapter(...yet), and connecting it up for digital modes is a bit of a rat's nest......but I'll be darned if it isn't just fun as shit to use. The UI is wellthought out, the VFO knob is a work of art, (surprisingly) the compact sizemakes it more approachable/friendly for it, and the community here aroundit (as heated as it can get) is tighter-knit.None of those show up in a spec sheet or lab testing Get what makes *you*happy, and share your experience so the next ham can do the same.Cheers,JulieOn Tue, Jun 8, 2021, 21:57 Al Lorona <[hidden email]> wrote:> When this subject appeared last week I had composed a reply but then slept> on it and canceled it the next morning, as I probably do 80% of the time.>> In this my second attempt, let me say that I've always been amazed at the> power wielded by Rob Sherwood. Thousands of hams hang on his latest tests.> If he deems a new radio exceptional in some way, that can mean many> millions of dollars for a manufacturer.>> And yet, if there were no such thing as gurus on the web and at places> like Dayton expounding about how Brand A is better than Brand B, how would> you answer the questions, "Do I like this transceiver?," and, "Is it any> good?">> You'd probably get on the air and use it, and decide that way.>> But we constantly have gurus telling us that Brand A is the 'best' which> horrifies us if up until now we liked Brand B better. Against our personal> experience we flip-flop and say, "Gee, I used to like Brand B, but Brand A> must be better because the gurus say so.">> Yet, there will always be guys who'll be tortured owning a transceiver> that has the 2nd highest dynamic range, or the 3rd best distortion. Never> mind if they can't actually hear the differences.>> It's how a rig *sounds and feels* during actual operating that's most> important. Not the numbers. For instance, Wes made a comment about his> tuning knob, and although some of you might have laughed at that... it's> darned important! That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.>> Here's my opinion on ranking receivers by 2 kHz 3rd order dynamic range:> almost any modern receiver has enough dynamic range to make this ranking> more and more meaningless as time goes on. Sherwood himself has said that> 90 dB or above is plenty enough. To understand why, see this post from 2016> by one of the old guys on this reflector:> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-The-Way-We-Rank-Receivers-long-td7623639.html>>> Lastly, if you've been enjoying your rig for years and then hear someone> else complain about a flaw you weren't even aware of, don't panic. There> are a million reasons why his concerns might not involve you in the least.>> Above all, have fun.>> Al W6LX/4> ______________________________________________________________> Elecraft mailing list> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> Post: mailto:[hidden email]>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html> Message delivered to julia@juliatuttle.net______________________________________________________________Elecraft mailing listHome: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraftHelp: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htmPost: mailto:[hidden email] list hosted by: http://www.qsl.netPlease help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.htmlMessage delivered to k9yeq@live.com______________________________________________________________Elecraft mailing listHome: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraftHelp: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htmPost: mailto:[hidden email] list hosted by: http://www.qsl.netPlease help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.htmlMessage delivered to [hidden email]
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Julia Tuttle

Re: Gurus

In reply to this post by Bill K9YEQ

It's KV1V, but probably not -- I've mostly been working FT8 from my (noisy,
urban, antenna-limited) home QTH, and I don't think you were one of the
couple of folks I managed to reach on CW from my girlfriend's (quiet,
rural, big enough to have a full-size 40m dipole) QTH.

On Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 11:42 PM Gary K9GS <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I agree Julie,Just curious, what is your call? I wonder if we've
> worked?73,Gary K9GS
> -------- Original message --------From: Bill Johnson <[hidden email]>
> Date: 6/9/21 11:32 PM (GMT-05:00) To: Al Lorona <[hidden email]>,
> Julia Tuttle <[hidden email]> Cc: Elecraft Reflector <
> [hidden email]> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Gurus Here, here,
> Julie!BillK9YEQHave a great day!Bill________________________________From:
> [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on
> behalf of Julia Tuttle <[hidden email]>Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021
> 9:36:00 PMTo: Al Lorona <[hidden email]>Cc: Elecraft Reflector <
> [hidden email]>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] GurusI'm gonna second
> "above all, have fun"!If it brings you joy to have the highest performing
> rig you can, cool, andI hope it serves you well.But if a different aspect
> of a radio, or even one you can't name, bringsyou joy, that's also cool,
> and I'm happy it makes you happy!My KX3 isn't at the top of the Sherwood
> list, it doesn't have a panadapter(...yet), and connecting it up for
> digital modes is a bit of a rat's nest......but I'll be darned if it isn't
> just fun as shit to use. The UI is wellthought out, the VFO knob is a work
> of art, (surprisingly) the compact sizemakes it more approachable/friendly
> for it, and the community here aroundit (as heated as it can get) is
> tighter-knit.None of those show up in a spec sheet or lab testing Get what
> makes *you*happy, and share your experience so the next ham can do the
> same.Cheers,JulieOn Tue, Jun 8, 2021, 21:57 Al Lorona <
> [hidden email]> wrote:> When this subject appeared last week I had
> composed a reply but then slept> on it and canceled it the next morning, as
> I probably do 80% of the time.>> In this my second attempt, let me say that
> I've always been amazed at the> power wielded by Rob Sherwood. Thousands of
> hams hang on his latest tests.> If he deems a new radio exceptional in some
> way, that can mean many> millions of dollars for a manufacturer.>> And yet,
> if there were no such thing as gurus on the web and at places> like Dayton
> expounding about how Brand A is better than Brand B, how would> you answer
> the questions, "Do I like this transceiver?," and, "Is it any> good?">>
> You'd probably get on the air and use it, and decide that way.>> But we
> constantly have gurus telling us that Brand A is the 'best' which>
> horrifies us if up until now we liked Brand B better. Against our personal>
> experience we flip-flop and say, "Gee, I used to like Brand B, but Brand A>
> must be better because the gurus say so.">> Yet, there will always be guys
> who'll be tortured owning a transceiver> that has the 2nd highest dynamic
> range, or the 3rd best distortion. Never> mind if they can't actually hear
> the differences.>> It's how a rig *sounds and feels* during actual
> operating that's most> important. Not the numbers. For instance, Wes made a
> comment about his> tuning knob, and although some of you might have laughed
> at that... it's> darned important! That's the kind of thing I'm talking
> about.>> Here's my opinion on ranking receivers by 2 kHz 3rd order dynamic
> range:> almost any modern receiver has enough dynamic range to make this
> ranking> more and more meaningless as time goes on. Sherwood himself has
> said that> 90 dB or above is plenty enough. To understand why, see this
> post from 2016> by one of the old guys on this reflector:>
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-The-Way-We-Rank-Receivers-long-td7623639.html>>>
> Lastly, if you've been enjoying your rig for years and then hear someone>
> else complain about a flaw you weren't even aware of, don't panic. There>
> are a million reasons why his concerns might not involve you in the
> least.>> Above all, have fun.>> Al W6LX/4>
> ______________________________________________________________> Elecraft
> mailing list> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> Post: mailto:
> [hidden email]>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net>
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
> Message delivered to
> julia@juliatuttle.net______________________________________________________________Elecraft
> mailing listHome: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraftHelp:
> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htmPost: mailto:[hidden email]
> list hosted by: http://www.qsl.netPlease help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.htmlMessage delivered to
> k9yeq@live.com______________________________________________________________Elecraft
> mailing listHome: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraftHelp:
> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htmPost: mailto:[hidden email]
> list hosted by: http://www.qsl.netPlease help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.htmlMessage delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Bill K9YEQ

Re: Gurus

In reply to this post by NK7Z

I would add, the radio operator with a license is supposed to know the requirements and operate accordingly. This includes staying with the passband of the FCC regulations. Just because a radio is FCC accepted, doesn't mean the operator doesn’t have responsibility to stay within the regulations. Thus if I note you are splattering because of too much mic gain, or whatever, doesn't excuse the person from adjusting the signal or correcting the situation, regardless of the manufacturer. It is the HAM's station creating the issue that is legally needing to correct it. Don't be offended, fix it. I have had issues with my own Elecraft radio with a circuit failure... what did I do? I fixed it.

Bill
K9YEQ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Wednesday, June 9, 2021 7:51 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

I must respectfully disagree sir...

The ordinary ham should be able to tell when his/her rig is out of spec.
The ordinary ham should be able to operate his/her rig correctly.
That is just no longer the case. There are a lot of folks out there that don't even know how a repeater works at the most basic of levels.
They are operating HF rigs with no understanding of how they work, and no understanding of what limits they need to maintain.

They create a mess on the air, and should be told about it. Nicely, but told non the less. It is far better to have a fellow ham tell you you have an issue, than have the FCC tell you...

Speaking of the FCC, I don't remember the FCC turning over responsibility for signal quality to the manufactures of radios, absolving the operator of all responsibility... It is the operators job to make sure he/she is operating their radio correctly, and within tolerance, period, end of discussion, the operator is responsible.

If he/she can not tell there is a problem, than that ham should not be allowed to transmit...

There are dirty transmitters all over, and they meet FCC specs... How can that be you might ask yourself?

In a lot of cases, the operator is not knowledgeable in how to drive the transmitter properly, or that low voltages feeding the transmitter can cause issues, or that triggering ALC in FT8 causes issues, there are any number of settings the Amateur can screw up, and the rig meets FCC specs...

So no, it is not "out of line" to let someone know their transmitter is spraying crap.

On 6/9/21 5:02 PM, Richards wrote:

> Anyone condemning other hams for using "dirty transmitters" is simply
> out of line.
>
> The ordinary ham is NOT an Electrical Engineer and he buys his rig in
> good faith, believing it passed FCC and other engineering standards.
> He uses it in good faith, assuming it is OK and not causing problems.
> But then, a few self-appointed Frequency Cops condemn the poor
> operator as a bad citizen for using a "dirty transmitter" as if the
> operator is somehow to blame.   I have worked a lot of contests with
> crowded conditions in a large metropolitan area, and nobody has ever
> whined about any of this, notwithstanding a couple of self-appointed
> experts living in the mountains of CA and CO claim it is a horrible epidemic.
> Besides, if this was such big problem why is it such a new, current
> topic? Supposedly, all those old rigs have been noisy all the time.
> I suspect it is topical only because they have nothing else to talk about.
>
> Well, even if it is a problem, there is no place for this sort of
> personal attack in ham radio, AND IT IS SIMPLY WRONG TO BLAME THE
> OPERATOR for how his rig works.   For most ops, ham radio is just a
> hobby and they are entitled to expect their radios will work right.
> Blaming the operator is simply out of line.   K8JHR
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]

Dave
https://www.nk7z.net

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email]
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

123